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#1
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Battery switching without tears
On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 1:01:09 PM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
You guys must pass the salt like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3PgxWaQMaQ delightful, but not quite the same A 27 at a recent contest had two separate switches plus an old guy to implement make and eventually break. The result took a Walmart run to get a replacement fuse. The diode seems a more certain alternative. |
#2
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Battery switching without tears
On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 10:03:31 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
On 4/5/20 9:45 AM, jfitch wrote: On Saturday, April 4, 2020 at 6:23:44 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote: On one of my flights last year I had to switch between my avionics battery and engine battery when the avionics battery voltage dropped too low (I had left the master on after the last flight and could only partially charge the avionics battery before launching). The switch over seemed to go okay, but then I noticed that my LX9000 was giving me unbelievably short glide distances. It turns out that the QNH altitude had been reset to the altitude at the time of switching. This was unacceptable, so I resolved to do something about it before this season. The simplest solution was to add a capacitor to the avionics power bus. The capacitor supplies power as the power selector switch is moving, and breaking, from the avionics battery, and connector, or making, to the engine battery (this is called a "break before make" switch. But how big of a capacitor to use? The basic equation involved is: V = I * t / C or C = I * t / V where V is voltage, I is current and t is time. Translation: the bigger the capacitor the smaller the voltage drop. If the requirement is to keep the voltage drop to 1 V, the current is 2 A (my situation) and t is 0.1 s, then C = 0.2 F (200,000 μF). The capacitor would also have to be rated for 16 V, min. That is a pretty big capacitor, so I decided I could tolerate a larger voltage drop (4 V), which cuts the size of the capacitor to 50,000 μF. I ended up finding a suitably sized 39,000 μF capacitor rated for 25 V. A smaller capacitor could by used if the current drain is lower, which is likely for most gliders. https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...301-ND/6928303 I installed the capacitor yesterday and monitored the bus voltage during switch-over with an oscilloscope, which was anti-climatic: there was no detectable drop in bus voltage. Apparently the bread-to-make time is very short, perhaps a millisecond. Haven't had a chance to fly with it yet, but should be able to soon. The scope waveforms and capacitor installation can be seen at: https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMo9rN7 What is the inrush current when you first switch the power on? Must not be enough to blow the fuse, but that'd be something I'd want to O'scope with a current probe. Yep. High enough current might eventually erode the switch contacts, or even damage the capacitor. The commonly used rotary switches are already being run over spec in modern panels. Schleicher and most others are typically using something like the NKK MRY106 or equivalent, these are called a 2A switch but that is the AC rating, DC rating is 1A. A modern panel uses something like 1.5A, and that is before you key the PTT switch. When I redid my panel I used an MRT23 which is 3A, and paralleled the contacts for a 6A total. Rotary switches with a higher rating are normally much larger physically. |
#3
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Battery switching without tears
On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 11:25:37 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 10:03:31 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote: On 4/5/20 9:45 AM, jfitch wrote: On Saturday, April 4, 2020 at 6:23:44 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote: On one of my flights last year I had to switch between my avionics battery and engine battery when the avionics battery voltage dropped too low (I had left the master on after the last flight and could only partially charge the avionics battery before launching). The switch over seemed to go okay, but then I noticed that my LX9000 was giving me unbelievably short glide distances. It turns out that the QNH altitude had been reset to the altitude at the time of switching. This was unacceptable, so I resolved to do something about it before this season. The simplest solution was to add a capacitor to the avionics power bus. The capacitor supplies power as the power selector switch is moving, and breaking, from the avionics battery, and connector, or making, to the engine battery (this is called a "break before make" switch. But how big of a capacitor to use? The basic equation involved is: V = I * t / C or C = I * t / V where V is voltage, I is current and t is time. Translation: the bigger the capacitor the smaller the voltage drop. If the requirement is to keep the voltage drop to 1 V, the current is 2 A (my situation) and t is 0.1 s, then C = 0.2 F (200,000 μF). The capacitor would also have to be rated for 16 V, min. That is a pretty big capacitor, so I decided I could tolerate a larger voltage drop (4 V), which cuts the size of the capacitor to 50,000 μF. I ended up finding a suitably sized 39,000 μF capacitor rated for 25 V. A smaller capacitor could by used if the current drain is lower, which is likely for most gliders. https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...301-ND/6928303 I installed the capacitor yesterday and monitored the bus voltage during switch-over with an oscilloscope, which was anti-climatic: there was no detectable drop in bus voltage. Apparently the bread-to-make time is very short, perhaps a millisecond. Haven't had a chance to fly with it yet, but should be able to soon. The scope waveforms and capacitor installation can be seen at: https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMo9rN7 What is the inrush current when you first switch the power on? Must not be enough to blow the fuse, but that'd be something I'd want to O'scope with a current probe. Yep. High enough current might eventually erode the switch contacts, or even damage the capacitor. The commonly used rotary switches are already being run over spec in modern panels. Schleicher and most others are typically using something like the NKK MRY106 or equivalent, these are called a 2A switch but that is the AC rating, DC rating is 1A. A modern panel uses something like 1.5A, and that is before you key the PTT switch. When I redid my panel I used an MRT23 which is 3A, and paralleled the contacts for a 6A total. Rotary switches with a higher rating are normally much larger physically. Schleicher parallels two sets of contacts of that 4-throw, dual pole switch.. Tom |
#4
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Battery switching without tears
On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 7:02:13 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 11:25:37 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote: On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 10:03:31 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote: On 4/5/20 9:45 AM, jfitch wrote: On Saturday, April 4, 2020 at 6:23:44 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote: On one of my flights last year I had to switch between my avionics battery and engine battery when the avionics battery voltage dropped too low (I had left the master on after the last flight and could only partially charge the avionics battery before launching). The switch over seemed to go okay, but then I noticed that my LX9000 was giving me unbelievably short glide distances. It turns out that the QNH altitude had been reset to the altitude at the time of switching. This was unacceptable, so I resolved to do something about it before this season. The simplest solution was to add a capacitor to the avionics power bus. The capacitor supplies power as the power selector switch is moving, and breaking, from the avionics battery, and connector, or making, to the engine battery (this is called a "break before make" switch. But how big of a capacitor to use? The basic equation involved is: V = I * t / C or C = I * t / V where V is voltage, I is current and t is time. Translation: the bigger the capacitor the smaller the voltage drop.. If the requirement is to keep the voltage drop to 1 V, the current is 2 A (my situation) and t is 0.1 s, then C = 0.2 F (200,000 μF). The capacitor would also have to be rated for 16 V, min. That is a pretty big capacitor, so I decided I could tolerate a larger voltage drop (4 V), which cuts the size of the capacitor to 50,000 μF. I ended up finding a suitably sized 39,000 μF capacitor rated for 25 V. A smaller capacitor could by used if the current drain is lower, which is likely for most gliders. https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...301-ND/6928303 I installed the capacitor yesterday and monitored the bus voltage during switch-over with an oscilloscope, which was anti-climatic: there was no detectable drop in bus voltage. Apparently the bread-to-make time is very short, perhaps a millisecond. Haven't had a chance to fly with it yet, but should be able to soon. The scope waveforms and capacitor installation can be seen at: https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMo9rN7 What is the inrush current when you first switch the power on? Must not be enough to blow the fuse, but that'd be something I'd want to O'scope with a current probe. Yep. High enough current might eventually erode the switch contacts, or even damage the capacitor. The commonly used rotary switches are already being run over spec in modern panels. Schleicher and most others are typically using something like the NKK MRY106 or equivalent, these are called a 2A switch but that is the AC rating, DC rating is 1A. A modern panel uses something like 1.5A, and that is before you key the PTT switch. When I redid my panel I used an MRT23 which is 3A, and paralleled the contacts for a 6A total. Rotary switches with a higher rating are normally much larger physically. Schleicher parallels two sets of contacts of that 4-throw, dual pole switch. Tom That gets you to 2A - still less than the panel draws with the PTT pressed I'd bet. The time constant of the Klixon is quite long compared to the inrush current (if the impedance is low). Do you have a high bandwidth current probe for your O'scope? The peak current may depend mainly on the arcing characteristics of the contacts in the switch. It's too bad they can't figure out how to make an LX9000 that can take a momentary interruption in power - many others have figured out how to do this.. |
#5
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Battery switching without tears
On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 10:03:31 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
On 4/5/20 9:45 AM, jfitch wrote: On Saturday, April 4, 2020 at 6:23:44 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote: On one of my flights last year I had to switch between my avionics battery and engine battery when the avionics battery voltage dropped too low (I had left the master on after the last flight and could only partially charge the avionics battery before launching). The switch over seemed to go okay, but then I noticed that my LX9000 was giving me unbelievably short glide distances. It turns out that the QNH altitude had been reset to the altitude at the time of switching. This was unacceptable, so I resolved to do something about it before this season. The simplest solution was to add a capacitor to the avionics power bus. The capacitor supplies power as the power selector switch is moving, and breaking, from the avionics battery, and connector, or making, to the engine battery (this is called a "break before make" switch. But how big of a capacitor to use? The basic equation involved is: V = I * t / C or C = I * t / V where V is voltage, I is current and t is time. Translation: the bigger the capacitor the smaller the voltage drop. If the requirement is to keep the voltage drop to 1 V, the current is 2 A (my situation) and t is 0.1 s, then C = 0.2 F (200,000 μF). The capacitor would also have to be rated for 16 V, min. That is a pretty big capacitor, so I decided I could tolerate a larger voltage drop (4 V), which cuts the size of the capacitor to 50,000 μF. I ended up finding a suitably sized 39,000 μF capacitor rated for 25 V. A smaller capacitor could by used if the current drain is lower, which is likely for most gliders. https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...301-ND/6928303 I installed the capacitor yesterday and monitored the bus voltage during switch-over with an oscilloscope, which was anti-climatic: there was no detectable drop in bus voltage. Apparently the bread-to-make time is very short, perhaps a millisecond. Haven't had a chance to fly with it yet, but should be able to soon. The scope waveforms and capacitor installation can be seen at: https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMo9rN7 What is the inrush current when you first switch the power on? Must not be enough to blow the fuse, but that'd be something I'd want to O'scope with a current probe. Yep. High enough current might eventually erode the switch contacts, or even damage the capacitor. These capacitors are intended for power supply applications and can handle high currents (note the size of the connector posts), although there aren't high currents in my panel. Tom |
#6
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Battery switching without tears
On 4/5/20 8:00 PM, 2G wrote:
On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 10:03:31 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote: On 4/5/20 9:45 AM, jfitch wrote: On Saturday, April 4, 2020 at 6:23:44 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote: On one of my flights last year I had to switch between my avionics battery and engine battery when the avionics battery voltage dropped too low (I had left the master on after the last flight and could only partially charge the avionics battery before launching). The switch over seemed to go okay, but then I noticed that my LX9000 was giving me unbelievably short glide distances. It turns out that the QNH altitude had been reset to the altitude at the time of switching. This was unacceptable, so I resolved to do something about it before this season. The simplest solution was to add a capacitor to the avionics power bus. The capacitor supplies power as the power selector switch is moving, and breaking, from the avionics battery, and connector, or making, to the engine battery (this is called a "break before make" switch. But how big of a capacitor to use? The basic equation involved is: V = I * t / C or C = I * t / V where V is voltage, I is current and t is time. Translation: the bigger the capacitor the smaller the voltage drop. If the requirement is to keep the voltage drop to 1 V, the current is 2 A (my situation) and t is 0.1 s, then C = 0.2 F (200,000 μF). The capacitor would also have to be rated for 16 V, min. That is a pretty big capacitor, so I decided I could tolerate a larger voltage drop (4 V), which cuts the size of the capacitor to 50,000 μF. I ended up finding a suitably sized 39,000 μF capacitor rated for 25 V. A smaller capacitor could by used if the current drain is lower, which is likely for most gliders. https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...301-ND/6928303 I installed the capacitor yesterday and monitored the bus voltage during switch-over with an oscilloscope, which was anti-climatic: there was no detectable drop in bus voltage. Apparently the bread-to-make time is very short, perhaps a millisecond. Haven't had a chance to fly with it yet, but should be able to soon. The scope waveforms and capacitor installation can be seen at: https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMo9rN7 What is the inrush current when you first switch the power on? Must not be enough to blow the fuse, but that'd be something I'd want to O'scope with a current probe. Yep. High enough current might eventually erode the switch contacts, or even damage the capacitor. These capacitors are intended for power supply applications and can handle high currents (note the size of the connector posts), although there aren't high currents in my panel. Tom There sure are high currents when you power up the panel. Current into the cap is capacitance times dv/dt, where capacitance is large and dv/dt is near infinite. Do the math. The switch may survive for a while then fail due to the repeated surges. The fact the Klixon didn't trip doesn't mean anything, fuses and breakers can take huge overloads for brief periods without tripping. There's better ways of doing this with diodes than just putting on a monster cap. Dave |
#7
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Battery switching without tears
Switches are generally rated according to interrupt capacity, and that's why the AC and DC ratings are different. In the immortal words of a friend of mine in the business, "DC just doesn't switch worth a ****". As the contacts open, an arc is struck. With AC current, the arc self extinguishes (for small switches) when the current goes to zero. The arc persists longer with DC, causes more contact wear, hence a reduced rating.
A "1A DC" switch is not going to fail or in any way be stressed by keying the mic and momentarily running 2, or even three or four amps. Try not to turn off the master while you are talking on the radio :-). My panel has a CN2, CNv, radio, flarm. I have the standard issue Schleicher rotary switch, no modifications. Switching between batteries is simple: turn the knob. No drama, no instrument problems. Evan Ludeman |
#8
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Battery switching without tears
On Monday, April 6, 2020 at 8:05:20 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote:
On 4/5/20 8:00 PM, 2G wrote: On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 10:03:31 AM UTC-7, kinsell wrote: On 4/5/20 9:45 AM, jfitch wrote: On Saturday, April 4, 2020 at 6:23:44 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote: On one of my flights last year I had to switch between my avionics battery and engine battery when the avionics battery voltage dropped too low (I had left the master on after the last flight and could only partially charge the avionics battery before launching). The switch over seemed to go okay, but then I noticed that my LX9000 was giving me unbelievably short glide distances. It turns out that the QNH altitude had been reset to the altitude at the time of switching. This was unacceptable, so I resolved to do something about it before this season. The simplest solution was to add a capacitor to the avionics power bus. The capacitor supplies power as the power selector switch is moving, and breaking, from the avionics battery, and connector, or making, to the engine battery (this is called a "break before make" switch. But how big of a capacitor to use? The basic equation involved is: V = I * t / C or C = I * t / V where V is voltage, I is current and t is time. Translation: the bigger the capacitor the smaller the voltage drop. If the requirement is to keep the voltage drop to 1 V, the current is 2 A (my situation) and t is 0.1 s, then C = 0.2 F (200,000 μF). The capacitor would also have to be rated for 16 V, min. That is a pretty big capacitor, so I decided I could tolerate a larger voltage drop (4 V), which cuts the size of the capacitor to 50,000 μF. I ended up finding a suitably sized 39,000 μF capacitor rated for 25 V. A smaller capacitor could by used if the current drain is lower, which is likely for most gliders. https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...301-ND/6928303 I installed the capacitor yesterday and monitored the bus voltage during switch-over with an oscilloscope, which was anti-climatic: there was no detectable drop in bus voltage. Apparently the bread-to-make time is very short, perhaps a millisecond. Haven't had a chance to fly with it yet, but should be able to soon. The scope waveforms and capacitor installation can be seen at: https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMo9rN7 What is the inrush current when you first switch the power on? Must not be enough to blow the fuse, but that'd be something I'd want to O'scope with a current probe. Yep. High enough current might eventually erode the switch contacts, or even damage the capacitor. These capacitors are intended for power supply applications and can handle high currents (note the size of the connector posts), although there aren't high currents in my panel. Tom There sure are high currents when you power up the panel. Current into the cap is capacitance times dv/dt, where capacitance is large and dv/dt is near infinite. Do the math. The switch may survive for a while then fail due to the repeated surges. The fact the Klixon didn't trip doesn't mean anything, fuses and breakers can take huge overloads for brief periods without tripping. There's better ways of doing this with diodes than just putting on a monster cap. Dave Remember how they come up with these current ratings. It is based on heating of the contact - a very short current pulse (μsec) that results in virtually no heating. |
#9
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Battery switching without tears
On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 8:45:30 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Saturday, April 4, 2020 at 6:23:44 PM UTC-7, 2G wrote: On one of my flights last year I had to switch between my avionics battery and engine battery when the avionics battery voltage dropped too low (I had left the master on after the last flight and could only partially charge the avionics battery before launching). The switch over seemed to go okay, but then I noticed that my LX9000 was giving me unbelievably short glide distances. It turns out that the QNH altitude had been reset to the altitude at the time of switching. This was unacceptable, so I resolved to do something about it before this season. The simplest solution was to add a capacitor to the avionics power bus. The capacitor supplies power as the power selector switch is moving, and breaking, from the avionics battery, and connector, or making, to the engine battery (this is called a "break before make" switch. But how big of a capacitor to use? The basic equation involved is: V = I * t / C or C = I * t / V where V is voltage, I is current and t is time. Translation: the bigger the capacitor the smaller the voltage drop. If the requirement is to keep the voltage drop to 1 V, the current is 2 A (my situation) and t is 0.1 s, then C = 0.2 F (200,000 μF). The capacitor would also have to be rated for 16 V, min. That is a pretty big capacitor, so I decided I could tolerate a larger voltage drop (4 V), which cuts the size of the capacitor to 50,000 μF. I ended up finding a suitably sized 39,000 μF capacitor rated for 25 V. A smaller capacitor could by used if the current drain is lower, which is likely for most gliders. https://www.digikey.com/product-deta...301-ND/6928303 I installed the capacitor yesterday and monitored the bus voltage during switch-over with an oscilloscope, which was anti-climatic: there was no detectable drop in bus voltage. Apparently the bread-to-make time is very short, perhaps a millisecond. Haven't had a chance to fly with it yet, but should be able to soon. The scope waveforms and capacitor installation can be seen at: https://flic.kr/s/aHsmMo9rN7 What is the inrush current when you first switch the power on? Must not be enough to blow the fuse, but that'd be something I'd want to O'scope with a current probe. I have no idea what the inrush current is. The time period of this current is so short that it doesn't trip my Klixon circuit breaker. Tom |
#10
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Battery switching without tears
I put a power resistor in the circuit to keep the current surge down. I undersized the capacitor so if I mess up on the with rotation I can lose power.. Typically I'll shut off some non-essential equipment to lower the draw if I really don't want a computer reset.
Andy On Sunday, April 5, 2020 at 8:45:30 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote: What is the inrush current when you first switch the power on? Must not be enough to blow the fuse, but that'd be something I'd want to O'scope with a current probe. |
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