Turn to Final - Keeping Ball Centered

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Roger wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:52:38 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker"
wrote:
-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you
flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken
-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training
pilot -- don't cross control stall on turn to final!
A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was
Perfectly safe if not close to the ground and the pilot is
proficient
ant not just current.

a requirement for a pilot's license.
Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

The Practical Test Standard requires the
demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree
bank and a safe or recommended airspeed.

That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's
not going to be 2g in my plane.
2Gg turns are fun nor are they hazardous when not done close to
the ground. When I took Bo specific training the instructor
started talking me into a steep turn. I asked if it was OK to
just roll
into
it and go. I He said "OK", so I just rolled left and pulled.
Coming up on the proper heading he said now lets do one the other
direction
where by I rolled to the right and pulled. This brought a
laughing comment, "You really like to do these things don't you?"
My puzzled "sure", brought the explanation that most of the Bo
pilots would
only
grudgingly do 45 degrees let alone 60. You should have heard
them complain when told the instructors would be blocking the
yokes so they couldn't use the ailerons when doing stalls.:-))

I've found few of newer pilots and instructors like 2G at 60
degrees
or the stalling characteristics of the Deb so when I go out to
practice it's only the "old timers" who go along.

When I took the PTS it was 60 degrees and 2Gs. By not going to 60
degrees in steep turns the students miss out on the different
banking
tendencies/characteristics. I often think it should be put back
to
that. There have been moments where I've been glad they did
things that way back then. One such moment was when a ultra
light flying far later than allowed popped out of the dark
directly in front of
me
when I was no more than a couple hundred yards (if that) from the
end
of the runway. Another was on the VOR approach to MtPleasant
where
you fly directly over the runway at 500 feet to the VOR to go
missed
on 27. When the instructor's voice went up an octave and he said
and
I quote..."What that...Oh, ****! Pull UP, Pull UP! I went full
power, stood the Deb on end and did a push over to level off that
left things floating. He never would tell me how close we came
but
from his actions I'd say probably no more than a few feet. BTW I
did
all of that under the hood. I mentioned to the CFI that I
figured had it been really close he'd have taken over. He said he
figured that I knew the limits of the plane and would react
quicker than he could even if he could see. He was right though,
The urgency (I couldeven feel him tense sitting next to me) told
me that this
should
be a maximum effort and not just a climb. Made me glad I use 120
for
approaches instead of 80 or 90 too:-))

Neither of these were things covered in primary training or the
PTS.
They took a lot of time and practice getting to know the limits
of the Deb.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
I agree. I had to do 60 degree banked turns for my Private as
well.

Sheesh. I can't remember what I had to do . I do remember spins,
some hood time and an engine failure on takeoff. I also remember
filing
and
putting in a cruising altitude of say, 3500 and then being so
afraid
to
deviate from it I flew underneat an overcast at that alt with my
fin
in
the clouds..


Bertie
A lot has changed since those days. If I remember right, the
requirement
was for a 60 degree banked turn in both directions entering one from
the
other within an altitude parameter either way of 50 feet. Just
racking my memory here but that sounds close.....and this was for
the
PRIVATE!!

I really can't remember, but I do remember being surprised when
instructing years later that i learned that many considered 45 deg to
be steep, so I must have learned at 60 degrees as well.

Bertie

I'm sure you did.

The problem with 45 degrees of bank is that it teaches little about
control in steep banked attitudes such as shallowing the bank before
raising the nose in a nose low condition caused by over bank.

Yeah. OK. That makes sense.

I've never liked the 45 degree parameter and have always recommended
to instructors that they teach bank control all the way out to 60
degrees regardless of the requirement.
This entire movement to make flying more "comfortable" for the masses
to sell airplanes and push aviation by lowering the requirements has
been flawed from the beginning in my opinion.

Well, exactly.

If I've flown with one pilot I've flown with a hundred who, when put
in a 60 degree banked turn with the nose going down and being told to
raise the nose, pulled instead of
shallowing out the bank first, tightening up the nose low condition.
It's a shame really, and I hate to see it.

Hmm. I've never othought of steep turns as this sort of exercise. I've
alwyas looked at them as keeping, rather than a regaining control type
of thing, but I might try this with some of my guys if we ever get the
damned airplane!
You're sort of crossing over into the spiral dive lesson there. Not a
bad thing...


Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Roger wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:52:38 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker"
wrote:
-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you
flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken
-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training
pilot -- don't cross control stall on turn to final!
A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was
Perfectly safe if not close to the ground and the pilot is
proficient
ant not just current.

a requirement for a pilot's license.
Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

The Practical Test Standard requires the
demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree
bank and a safe or recommended airspeed.

That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's
not going to be 2g in my plane.
2Gg turns are fun nor are they hazardous when not done close to
the ground. When I took Bo specific training the instructor
started talking me into a steep turn. I asked if it was OK to
just roll
into
it and go. I He said "OK", so I just rolled left and pulled.
Coming up on the proper heading he said now lets do one the other
direction
where by I rolled to the right and pulled. This brought a
laughing comment, "You really like to do these things don't you?"
My puzzled "sure", brought the explanation that most of the Bo
pilots would
only
grudgingly do 45 degrees let alone 60. You should have heard
them complain when told the instructors would be blocking the
yokes so they couldn't use the ailerons when doing stalls.:-))

I've found few of newer pilots and instructors like 2G at 60
degrees
or the stalling characteristics of the Deb so when I go out to
practice it's only the "old timers" who go along.

When I took the PTS it was 60 degrees and 2Gs. By not going to 60
degrees in steep turns the students miss out on the different
banking
tendencies/characteristics. I often think it should be put back
to
that. There have been moments where I've been glad they did
things that way back then. One such moment was when a ultra
light flying far later than allowed popped out of the dark
directly in front of
me
when I was no more than a couple hundred yards (if that) from the
end
of the runway. Another was on the VOR approach to MtPleasant
where
you fly directly over the runway at 500 feet to the VOR to go
missed
on 27. When the instructor's voice went up an octave and he said
and
I quote..."What that...Oh, ****! Pull UP, Pull UP! I went full
power, stood the Deb on end and did a push over to level off that
left things floating. He never would tell me how close we came
but
from his actions I'd say probably no more than a few feet. BTW I
did
all of that under the hood. I mentioned to the CFI that I
figured had it been really close he'd have taken over. He said he
figured that I knew the limits of the plane and would react
quicker than he could even if he could see. He was right though,
The urgency (I couldeven feel him tense sitting next to me) told
me that this
should
be a maximum effort and not just a climb. Made me glad I use 120
for
approaches instead of 80 or 90 too:-))

Neither of these were things covered in primary training or the
PTS.
They took a lot of time and practice getting to know the limits
of the Deb.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
I agree. I had to do 60 degree banked turns for my Private as
well.

Sheesh. I can't remember what I had to do . I do remember spins,
some hood time and an engine failure on takeoff. I also remember
filing
and
putting in a cruising altitude of say, 3500 and then being so
afraid
to
deviate from it I flew underneat an overcast at that alt with my
fin
in
the clouds..


Bertie
A lot has changed since those days. If I remember right, the
requirement
was for a 60 degree banked turn in both directions entering one from
the
other within an altitude parameter either way of 50 feet. Just
racking my memory here but that sounds close.....and this was for
the
PRIVATE!!

I really can't remember, but I do remember being surprised when
instructing years later that i learned that many considered 45 deg to
be steep, so I must have learned at 60 degrees as well.

Bertie

I'm sure you did.

The problem with 45 degrees of bank is that it teaches little about
control in steep banked attitudes such as shallowing the bank before
raising the nose in a nose low condition caused by over bank.

Yeah. OK. That makes sense.
I've never liked the 45 degree parameter and have always recommended
to instructors that they teach bank control all the way out to 60
degrees regardless of the requirement.
This entire movement to make flying more "comfortable" for the masses
to sell airplanes and push aviation by lowering the requirements has
been flawed from the beginning in my opinion.

Well, exactly.
If I've flown with one pilot I've flown with a hundred who, when put
in a 60 degree banked turn with the nose going down and being told to
raise the nose, pulled instead of
shallowing out the bank first, tightening up the nose low condition.
It's a shame really, and I hate to see it.

Hmm. I've never othought of steep turns as this sort of exercise. I've
alwyas looked at them as keeping, rather than a regaining control type
of thing, but I might try this with some of my guys if we ever get the
damned airplane!
You're sort of crossing over into the spiral dive lesson there. Not a
bad thing...


Bertie

Actually you're right on how you view the exercise. It is an exercise in
maintaining control. What happens however, with the average pilot,
especially those not trained in steep turns at around 60 degrees, is
that invariably, pilots trying to maintain that 60 degree bank will
allow the nose to get lower than the horizon line as they attempt to
maintain and control the over bank.
When this happens, the only way to correct and get the nose back
tracking again on the horizon is to shallow out FIRST, then raise the
nose back up where it belongs. Trying to solve the error by pulling the
nose back up without shallowing first just takes the pilot deeper into
the error.
The secondary error that is most common is in not releasing the back
pressure properly then reapplying it again as the turn is reversed.
All in all, 60 degree banked turn to alternating sides is a wonderful
training tool. These turns teach control pressure blending and
coordination better than any other maneuver I've ever used .
If a pilot can enter alternating 720's and perform the turns AND the
transition through the reversal between them within a 50 foot altitude
error parameter, they KNOW control pressure and can FLY the airplane!

A side advantage to learning steep 720's VFR really comes in handy later
on if
a pilot goes into serious instrument training where recovery from nose
low unusual attitudes requires correcting the bank first, then raising
the nose........as I've always maintained and always will...it's the way
you learn the basics that will determine how well you eventually will
fly all through your career in aviation.

--
Dudley Henriques

"Dudley Henriques" wrote:

When this happens, the only way to correct and get the nose back tracking
again on the horizon is to shallow out FIRST, then raise the nose back up
where it belongs.

I guess a little top rudder is right out, eh?



The secondary error that is most common is in not releasing the back
pressure properly then reapplying it again as the turn is reversed.
All in all, 60 degree banked turn to alternating sides is a wonderful
training tool. These turns teach control pressure blending and
coordination better than any other maneuver I've ever used .
If a pilot can enter alternating 720's and perform the turns AND the
transition through the reversal between them within a 50 foot altitude
error parameter, they KNOW control pressure and can FLY the airplane!

You're on. That will be the drill for Saturday.

I've done a lot of low/slow/steep flying lately on photo missions. Your
drill should help.

--
Dan
T-182T at BFM

Dan Luke wrote:
"Dudley Henriques" wrote:

When this happens, the only way to correct and get the nose back tracking
again on the horizon is to shallow out FIRST, then raise the nose back up
where it belongs.

I guess a little top rudder is right out, eh

Top rudder will produce a slipping turn but won't counteract the nose
down tendency. It will also take you out of complimentary coordination
and into slip which is undesirable in this instance. Remember, you're
holding in back pressure to produce the turn. The bank absolutely has to
be shallowed to the point where the nose can be raised as opposed to
pulled down deeper into the error.

When you are trying out these turns, try using top rudder when nose down
and note the result.

--
Dudley Henriques

On Mar 13, 12:55 am, WingFlaps wrote:
On Mar 13, 7:37 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:



On Mar 12, 6:05 pm, "Owner" wrote:

"Ken S. Tucker" wrote in ...

On Mar 12, 12:31 pm, Gig 601XL Builder
wrote:
Ken S. Tucker wrote:
and as it turned
out the fella was gov qualified to license me,
which he did.
Ken

Which one is you?

Total Names found for KEN TUCKER is 22.

KENNETH CARDEN TUCKER KENNETH EDWARD TUCKER
KENNETH W TUCKER KENDALL JOHN TUCKER
KENNETH EDWARD TUCKER KENNETH RAY TUCKER
KENNETH W TUCKER KENNETH THOMAS TUCKER
KENNETH RICHARD TUCKER KENNETH DALE TUCKER
KENNETH E TUCKER KENNETH J TUCKER
KENNETH JOHN TUCKER KENT HOWARD TUCKER
KENNETH W TUCKER KENNETH WAYNE TUCKER
KENT DAVID TUCKER KENT LEE TUCKER
KENNETH ROYAL TUCKER KENNETH CLAYTON TUCKER
KENNETH STEVEN TUCKER KENNETH HAROLD TUCKER

LOL, thank you for your interest in me.
I'm afraid I cannot post my license number
off my old paper license for security reasons,
and not my Mensa number either, or social
security number, CIA file etc. ,
it's all classified.

Yes, your psychologist did say all your information is classified, but I
thought that was due to doctor/patient privileges

u1= -sin H sin P cos R + cos H sin R
u2 = cos H sin P cos R - sin H sin R
u3 = cos P cos R
Unit vector u is up, H is Heading, R is Roll, P is Pitch.

Vectors A = G+L+T+D
A is net acceleration, Gravity, Lift, Thrust, Drag.
G = -1k.

Is any of that familiar?
If so, are the components of u correct?
I'm also a student of aerodynamics.

Nope. Forces don't equal acceleration

LOL, does a "unit" mass shine a light?
Ken

On Mar 13, 6:23 am, Dudley Henriques wrote:
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Roger wrote:
On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 10:52:38 -0800, Jim Stewart
wrote:

Ken S. Tucker wrote:
On Mar 12, 3:39 am, Dan wrote:
On Mar 12, 2:18 am, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

-- IGNORE BELOW -- Depends on the A/C, what were you flying?
In an F-4 doing a 3-4g bank is easy, but in
a trainer I'd suggest 2g max.
Ken
-- IGNORE ABOVE ---

Assuming you're not flying an F-4 in a sim, we'll move on to
reality....

This fear is (correctly) pounded into every aspiring/training
pilot -- don't cross control stall on turn to final!
A pilot is trained to do 2g coordinated turns,
even in twink flying, gee I wonder why.
It's a perfectly safe thing to do and IIRC was
Perfectly safe if not close to the ground and the pilot is
proficient
ant not just current.

a requirement for a pilot's license.
Are you just making this stuff up as you go along?

The Practical Test Standard requires the
demonstration of a steep turn at 45 degree
bank and a safe or recommended airspeed.

That's as steep and high g as it gets and it's
not going to be 2g in my plane.
2Gg turns are fun nor are they hazardous when not done close to the
ground. When I took Bo specific training the instructor started
talking me into a steep turn. I asked if it was OK to just roll into
it and go. I He said "OK", so I just rolled left and pulled. Coming
up on the proper heading he said now lets do one the other direction
where by I rolled to the right and pulled. This brought a laughing
comment, "You really like to do these things don't you?" My puzzled
"sure", brought the explanation that most of the Bo pilots would only
grudgingly do 45 degrees let alone 60. You should have heard them
complain when told the instructors would be blocking the yokes so
they couldn't use the ailerons when doing stalls.:-))

I've found few of newer pilots and instructors like 2G at 60 degrees
or the stalling characteristics of the Deb so when I go out to
practice it's only the "old timers" who go along.

When I took the PTS it was 60 degrees and 2Gs. By not going to 60
degrees in steep turns the students miss out on the different banking
tendencies/characteristics. I often think it should be put back to
that. There have been moments where I've been glad they did things
that way back then. One such moment was when a ultra light flying
far later than allowed popped out of the dark directly in front of me
when I was no more than a couple hundred yards (if that) from the end
of the runway. Another was on the VOR approach to MtPleasant where
you fly directly over the runway at 500 feet to the VOR to go missed
on 27. When the instructor's voice went up an octave and he said and
I quote..."What that...Oh, ****! Pull UP, Pull UP! I went full
power, stood the Deb on end and did a push over to level off that
left things floating. He never would tell me how close we came but
from his actions I'd say probably no more than a few feet. BTW I did
all of that under the hood. I mentioned to the CFI that I figured
had it been really close he'd have taken over. He said he figured
that I knew the limits of the plane and would react quicker than he
could even if he could see. He was right though, The urgency (I
couldeven feel him tense sitting next to me) told me that this should
be a maximum effort and not just a climb. Made me glad I use 120 for
approaches instead of 80 or 90 too:-))

Neither of these were things covered in primary training or the PTS.
They took a lot of time and practice getting to know the limits of
the Deb.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
I agree. I had to do 60 degree banked turns for my Private as well.

Sheesh. I can't remember what I had to do . I do remember spins, some
hood time and an engine failure on takeoff. I also remember filing and
putting in a cruising altitude of say, 3500 and then being so afraid to
deviate from it I flew underneat an overcast at that alt with my fin in
the clouds..

Bertie

A lot has changed since those days. If I remember right, the requirement
was for a 60 degree banked turn in both directions entering one from the
other within an altitude parameter either way of 50 feet. Just racking
my memory here but that sounds close.....and this was for the PRIVATE!!
:-))
Dudley Henriques

An instrument that was stressed for me during
instruction was this,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitude_indicator

The 60 degree banked turn (IIRC), did require that
50' +/- altitude, keeping the ball centered, and
maintaining a constant KIAS with some +power.

When that 50' +/- requirement was spec'd by the
instructor I got fixated on the "rate of climb"
indicator.
Well he smirked and sent my concentration to the
attitude indicator and to learn to use that.
Other pilots have mentioned the attitude indicator
is the most important instrument.
What do you guys think?
Ken

On Mar 14, 4:36*am, "Ron A." wrote:
I didn't know at the time about turning more than standard rate on the
coordinator, it was something I hadn't done when he requested it. *The peg
is around 45 degrees or so. *I was also watching my airspeed for decay while
maintaining level flight. *And I know you aren't supposed to use the feeling
in your butt for instrument flight, but it I couldn't help it being a newbie
to instrument flight. *I of course rely on the instruments when they don't
agree with my body.


I think something is not quite right here. I may have this wrong, but
the TC doesn't indicate angle of bank at all. It's a rate instrument
and indicates rate of roll and rate of turn (plus ball) -at least
that's what I learnt. In that case where the peg is does not inicate
angle of bank but rate of bank/turn

Cheers

On Mar 13, 1:19 pm, "Ken S. Tucker" wrote:

An instrument that was stressed for me during
instruction was this,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attitude_indicator

The 60 degree banked turn (IIRC), did require that
50' +/- altitude, keeping the ball centered, and
maintaining a constant KIAS with some +power.

When that 50' +/- requirement was spec'd by the
instructor I got fixated on the "rate of climb"
indicator.
Well he smirked and sent my concentration to the
attitude indicator and to learn to use that.
Other pilots have mentioned the attitude indicator
is the most important instrument.
What do you guys think?
Ken

We think it shows you have not had any training. PPL students
are told to LOOK OUTSIDE during steep turn training, not to fixate on
instruments. They need to see what the horizon is up to, not what
instruments are indicating. A glance at the ASI and altimeter every
few seconds is in order, but they're not to refer to the AI constantly
for steep turns. We've had students who were all over the sky, chasing
instrument needles, so we sometimes cover up the whole panel and make
them do it by looking outside; the airplane settles down and behaves
itself. Amazing.
This is standard Canadian PPL curriculum, and the US wouldn't
be much different.

Dan

On Mar 14, 8:33 am, WingFlaps wrote:

I think something is not quite right here. I may have this wrong, but
the TC doesn't indicate angle of bank at all. It's a rate instrument
and indicates rate of roll and rate of turn (plus ball) -at least
that's what I learnt. In that case where the peg is does not inicate
angle of bank but rate of bank/turn


Needle Rate of turn.

Ball Balanced turn

On Wed, 12 Mar 2008 11:16:23 -0800, Jim Stewart wrote:

I hesitate to add to this discussion because
I'm not an instructor, just a rather slow
student who's not qualified to give advice
that might kill someone.

I hope this isn't copyrighted because I just stole it.
--
Remove numbers for gmail and for God's sake it ain't "gee" either!
I hesitate to add to this discussion because I'm not an instructor,
just a rather slow student who's not qualified to give advice that
might kill someone.