Landing a Mooney

Julian Scarfe wrote:
"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...


I've never flown a low wing plane before the Mooney and I am having a
problem with the sight picture working out for me. Is this a pretty
common issue in transitioning to these planes or should I just resign to
the fact that I'm not going to get as nice a landings in my Mooney as I
did in the Skyhawk .


I think you're most of the way there, in that you've correctly identified
the major issue. Once you've got the speed control mastered (which is
critical, as everyone has told you) it *is* all about sight picture and
knowing where the wheels are in relation to the runway. Mooneys are
particularly unflattering of bad landings because of the nature of the gear,
but no harder to land well.

I'd add one more thing to the speed control notes. You want to be crossing the
threshold at 71 knots (M20J). On final, if you see you are high, try -raising-
the nose and scrubbing off 5 knots or so. It's counterintuitive, but you will
find raising the nose at this speed will increase your descent angle.

For a normal landing, cross the threshold at 71. For a short-field landing, 65.
Don't go any slower than that or you won't be able to flare. Don't go any
faster, or you'll float or bounce.

There's little shock absorrption in the landing gear, so don't let it touch when
you're going to fast or you'll be airborne again in a heartbeat, with a
wheelbarrow to follow.

I can relate. I just got my first few landings in a Comanche-250 the other
day. The downward pitch and apparent nose-scrubbing tendency was the biggest hurdle.
I normally land my Cherokee with 2 of the 3 notches of flaps to keep it from pitching
the nose down so much. With the speed of the Comanche (which I've heard is very
similar to the Mooney save for the strut/puck gear differences), all the flaps are
normally required. It seemed to be a matter of holding the (apparent nose-low)
attitute *by sight* before flaring to let the speed bleed off. Then the actual
touchdown was by feel once slow enough to not balloon and keep the nosewheel off.

YMMV... sure did like the 1500 fpm climb though...

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss *
* Electrical Engineering candidate Ph.D. graduate student *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

How tall are you? If you are not a very tall person you may be having a hard
time seeing over the cowl. The seats are very low in the Mooney since the
plane was designed for 6' + individuals.
What I like to do with students is to pull onto the runway and sit there
lined up with the runway (make sure the CFI is watching for traffic you have
your back too!). Really take the time to get used to the picture down the
runway with the plane on the ground. Notice where the runway edge intersects
your head (probably above your ears). Although some runways are more wide or
narrow the runway edge will always intersect your head at the same point
(its based only on your hight above the runway).
Also, when landing the Mooney understand that if the stall horn isn't even
going off you are far, far from landing speed. The Mooney will float and in
the begining you can use the stall horn to help determine when you should
allow the plane to sink below 3 feet. Anything faster than 65 knots or so
should be kept above 3 feet. The Mooney gets very upset if the nose wheel
touches first because there are no shocks. Because of the donut's
characteristics the nose will push back rather hard and bounce you back into
the air. You get 2 bounces for free, the 3rd will cost about $15,000.
As long as you control your speed in the Mooney, plan your decents far
enough out, and keep ahead of the plane you will find it a very nice, rather
easy plane to fly. It does not deserve the neg reputation it has for being
hard to fly.

-Robert, Mooney CFI


"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
We just purchased a'79 M20J 4443H. I am in the middle of getting my 10
hours with a CFI for Insurance purposes and I have to tell you that this
thing is a lot different to land than a Skyhawk. So far I am glad that
my CFI has been with me because 75 percent of the landings have not been
pretty. They are safe (mostly) but nothing you'd want the wife to film
with the video camera. I've got the speeds down good (100 on downwind,
90 on base and 80 on final) but getting it to the runway smoothly has
been a challange.

I've never flown a low wing plane before the Mooney and I am having a
problem with the sight picture working out for me. Is this a pretty
common issue in transitioning to these planes or should I just resign to
the fact that I'm not going to get as nice a landings in my Mooney as I
did in the Skyhawk .

Right now any stories would help out tremendously!! Thanks.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student Mooney Owner
'79 M20J 4443H @ TYQ

"Robert M. Gary" wrote

Really take the time to get used to
the picture down the runway with the plane on the ground.

Robert, I go one step further, I get out and hold the tail
down in order that the student can see (and hopefully retain)
the landing attitude.

Bob Moore

Don't flare a Mooney.

What you know as a flare will cause nothing but trouble.

Instead of the "flare" do a "round out". If you have good electric trim,
use it instead of back pressure. Also, don't chop the power, remove it
SLOOOOWWWWLLLY. The plane can land before idle.You want a slow transition
from nose down to nose wheel just a bit higher. Let the plane fly down the
runway while the speed bleeds. Worry about spot landings after you have
practiced smooth ones. Once you have the site pictures and techniques, you
can move it to the numbers.

What others have said about airspeed and stabilized approach are more
important than what I just said, but if you got them right this is the next
step.




"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
We just purchased a'79 M20J 4443H. I am in the middle of getting my 10
hours with a CFI for Insurance purposes and I have to tell you that this
thing is a lot different to land than a Skyhawk. So far I am glad that
my CFI has been with me because 75 percent of the landings have not been
pretty. They are safe (mostly) but nothing you'd want the wife to film
with the video camera. I've got the speeds down good (100 on downwind,
90 on base and 80 on final) but getting it to the runway smoothly has
been a challange.

I've never flown a low wing plane before the Mooney and I am having a
problem with the sight picture working out for me. Is this a pretty
common issue in transitioning to these planes or should I just resign to
the fact that I'm not going to get as nice a landings in my Mooney as I
did in the Skyhawk .

Right now any stories would help out tremendously!! Thanks.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student Mooney Owner
'79 M20J 4443H @ TYQ

Don't forget that, as with any airplane, stall speed and thus approach speed
vary with weight. If 70 knots works well on short final at max gross weight,
then to get the same flare and float characteristics, you must be slower at
lighter weights. If the plane is 20% below max gross, then approach speed
should be 10% less.

I should have said MPH... I am just so used to using knots for the
Skyhawk I forgot. My bad!! JK

Dudley Henriques wrote:
"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...

We just purchased a'79 M20J 4443H. I am in the middle of getting my
10
hours with a CFI for Insurance purposes and I have to tell you that
this
thing is a lot different to land than a Skyhawk. So far I am glad
that
my CFI has been with me because 75 percent of the landings have not
been
pretty. They are safe (mostly) but nothing you'd want the wife to film
with the video camera. I've got the speeds down good (100 on
downwind,
90 on base and 80 on final) but getting it to the runway smoothly has
been a challange.

I've never flown a low wing plane before the Mooney and I am having a
problem with the sight picture working out for me. Is this a pretty
common issue in transitioning to these planes or should I just resign
to
the fact that I'm not going to get as nice a landings in my Mooney as
I
did in the Skyhawk .

Right now any stories would help out tremendously!! Thanks.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student Mooney Owner
'79 M20J 4443H @ TYQ


Hi Jon;

I've flown the Mk21 and even the old Mite, but it's been a few years :-)

Mooney's are VERY clean and have a tendency to stay put in the flare
until they bleed off energy (airspeed). It's not a big deal really, but
it pays you to fly a stabilized approach in these airplanes and nail the
flare airspeed right on the nose. Their slippery enough that they can
get a bit away from you airspeed wise almost before you can catch it,
putting you in the flare a bit hotter than you want to be. If this
happens, just hold it there if you have the room and let it bleed into
the landing, or take it around if you have any doubt at all about the
available runway. Ground effect is prevalent in a Mooney because of the
short gear height. It can be tricky, but it's nothing to worry about if
you're getting a good checkout.
One thing to remember in Mooney's; actually any airplane for that
matter, but especially something as slippery in the air as a Mooney;
stay ahead of the airplane. You don't have the drag of that 172 to bail
you out of an airspeed pickup on approach. Start flying the airplane
where it will be ten seconds from now and you'll have a fair handle on
things with a Mooney.
One more thing; stop for a second on line up before takeoff and look
directly ahead of you over the glare. Remember that view. That's what
you'll be seeing at the instant of touchdown!
Good luck;
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
for email; take out the trash

I don't think you specified either way did you? All I saw were the
numbers with no mph or kts indicated. I think someone mentioned the
difference in a post perhaps?
As I said, I haven't flown the Mooney's for a while, but if indeed you
WERE dealing with knots, 80 kts over the fence in a Mooney might be a
bit hot :-)
Anyway Jon, AIRSPEED control is the vital message here. Fly it by the
book, and alter if needed for conditions, fly a stabilized approach and
NAIL the airspeed at the flare.....and there IS a flare in a Mooney just
like any other airplane. It's just fast, smooth, and slippery, so
airspeed control is more critical with higher performance airplanes.
It's ok to consider the flare as a "transition" into a landing if you
like, because that's all it is anyway :-)
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
for email; take out the trash


"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
I should have said MPH... I am just so used to using knots for the
Skyhawk I forgot. My bad!! JK

Dudley Henriques wrote:
"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...

We just purchased a'79 M20J 4443H. I am in the middle of getting my
10
hours with a CFI for Insurance purposes and I have to tell you that
this
thing is a lot different to land than a Skyhawk. So far I am glad
that
my CFI has been with me because 75 percent of the landings have not
been
pretty. They are safe (mostly) but nothing you'd want the wife to
film
with the video camera. I've got the speeds down good (100 on
downwind,
90 on base and 80 on final) but getting it to the runway smoothly
has
been a challange.

I've never flown a low wing plane before the Mooney and I am having a
problem with the sight picture working out for me. Is this a pretty
common issue in transitioning to these planes or should I just resign
to
the fact that I'm not going to get as nice a landings in my Mooney as
I
did in the Skyhawk .

Right now any stories would help out tremendously!! Thanks.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student Mooney Owner
'79 M20J 4443H @ TYQ


Hi Jon;

I've flown the Mk21 and even the old Mite, but it's been a few years
:-)

Mooney's are VERY clean and have a tendency to stay put in the flare
until they bleed off energy (airspeed). It's not a big deal really,
but it pays you to fly a stabilized approach in these airplanes and
nail the flare airspeed right on the nose. Their slippery enough that
they can get a bit away from you airspeed wise almost before you can
catch it, putting you in the flare a bit hotter than you want to be.
If this happens, just hold it there if you have the room and let it
bleed into the landing, or take it around if you have any doubt at
all about the available runway. Ground effect is prevalent in a
Mooney because of the short gear height. It can be tricky, but it's
nothing to worry about if you're getting a good checkout.
One thing to remember in Mooney's; actually any airplane for that
matter, but especially something as slippery in the air as a Mooney;
stay ahead of the airplane. You don't have the drag of that 172 to
bail you out of an airspeed pickup on approach. Start flying the
airplane where it will be ten seconds from now and you'll have a fair
handle on things with a Mooney.
One more thing; stop for a second on line up before takeoff and look
directly ahead of you over the glare. Remember that view. That's what
you'll be seeing at the instant of touchdown!
Good luck;
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
for email; take out the trash

Until you get your visual sight picture down you might try reducing power to
idle at about 50' and just flying it onto the runway with a controlled
smooth descent, making sure you don't land nosegear first. Then when you
have that down you could use the "normal" procedure of holding it just off
the runway until it plays out and lands. With a low wing you have a little
more ground effect near touchdown.

--

Darrell R. Schmidt
B-58 Hustler History: http://members.cox.net/dschmidt1/
-

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
We just purchased a'79 M20J 4443H. I am in the middle of getting my 10
hours with a CFI for Insurance purposes and I have to tell you that this
thing is a lot different to land than a Skyhawk. So far I am glad that
my CFI has been with me because 75 percent of the landings have not been
pretty. They are safe (mostly) but nothing you'd want the wife to film
with the video camera. I've got the speeds down good (100 on downwind,
90 on base and 80 on final) but getting it to the runway smoothly has
been a challange.

I've never flown a low wing plane before the Mooney and I am having a
problem with the sight picture working out for me. Is this a pretty
common issue in transitioning to these planes or should I just resign to
the fact that I'm not going to get as nice a landings in my Mooney as I
did in the Skyhawk .

Right now any stories would help out tremendously!! Thanks.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student Mooney Owner
'79 M20J 4443H @ TYQ

Hard to resist this thread. I was on the Mooney listserver for a couple of
years and there is an 'unlimited' number of landing notes for you. Every
model, vintage, condition. If you aren't on it, you should be. Don't have
the details though.

The various models apparently have different speeds, challenges, and
techniques. I flew a '61 model 21 with the Johnson bar. I fell in love
with landing it, and I'm a high wing guy too. Airspeed as always was the
key.

The thing I liked the most though, was doing short field landings at 65mph
as I remember. At a very specific airspeed (68 I think at our weight), you
apparently fell out of laminar flow mode and the descent angle would
significantly steepen. If you held 65 and pulled the power 2 wingspans up,
it was automatic spot landing. Neat. I think someone else mentioned that
effect (pitch up and slow 5 knots and the descent rate goes up).

Apparently that is a lot trickier on the later heavier models. Have fun!

"Jon Kraus" wrote in message
...
We just purchased a'79 M20J 4443H. I am in the middle of getting my 10
hours with a CFI for Insurance purposes and I have to tell you that this
thing is a lot different to land than a Skyhawk. So far I am glad that
my CFI has been with me because 75 percent of the landings have not been
pretty. They are safe (mostly) but nothing you'd want the wife to film
with the video camera. I've got the speeds down good (100 on downwind,
90 on base and 80 on final) but getting it to the runway smoothly has
been a challange.

I've never flown a low wing plane before the Mooney and I am having a
problem with the sight picture working out for me. Is this a pretty
common issue in transitioning to these planes or should I just resign to
the fact that I'm not going to get as nice a landings in my Mooney as I
did in the Skyhawk .

Right now any stories would help out tremendously!! Thanks.

Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Student Mooney Owner
'79 M20J 4443H @ TYQ