Why so many rivets?

I'm currently considering embarking on an RV project and after checking out
a few in our local EAA chapter I ran across a seemingly curious fact. I
recall the builders telling me that their RV kits have around 10,000 rivets.
Compared to a Piper Comanche at 3,714 and a Warrior at 1,785 that's a heck
of a lot of rivets.

So the question is, why so many???


-Brian
N33431

On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:26:00 -0600, "Brian Sponcil"
wrote:

I'm currently considering embarking on an RV project and after checking out
a few in our local EAA chapter I ran across a seemingly curious fact. I
recall the builders telling me that their RV kits have around 10,000 rivets.
Compared to a Piper Comanche at 3,714 and a Warrior at 1,785 that's a heck
of a lot of rivets.

So the question is, why so many???

Don't know for sure, but here are my guesses:

1. It's possible the RV uses smaller rivets. Smaller rivets are easier for
amateur installers, while a manufacturer with trained riveters might use larger
rivets to cut down the man-hours needed for construction.

2. Most of the RV series are aerobatic, while the Pipers are not. More rivets
needed due to higher load factors

3. The designers add a bit of extra margin due to mistakes the amateur might
make.

4. The "N" number of rivets listed for Pipers may not include rivets used by
any companies that subcontract parts, while the builder does all the RV rivets.

5. RVs seem to use rivets *everywhere*...perhaps the Pipers use more bolts,
molded sections, etc.

6. Eighth-inch rivets are supposed to be installed about 32 to a foot, and most
RV builders think this --- --- is six inches. :-)

Ron Wanttaja

"Ron Wanttaja" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:26:00 -0600, "Brian Sponcil"

wrote:

I'm currently considering embarking on an RV project and after checking
out
a few in our local EAA chapter I ran across a seemingly curious fact. I
recall the builders telling me that their RV kits have around 10,000
rivets.
Compared to a Piper Comanche at 3,714 and a Warrior at 1,785 that's a heck
of a lot of rivets.

So the question is, why so many???

Don't know for sure, but here are my guesses:

1. It's possible the RV uses smaller rivets. Smaller rivets are easier
for
amateur installers, while a manufacturer with trained riveters might use
larger
rivets to cut down the man-hours needed for construction.

2. Most of the RV series are aerobatic, while the Pipers are not. More
rivets
needed due to higher load factors

3. The designers add a bit of extra margin due to mistakes the amateur
might
make.

4. The "N" number of rivets listed for Pipers may not include rivets used
by
any companies that subcontract parts, while the builder does all the RV
rivets.

5. RVs seem to use rivets *everywhere*...perhaps the Pipers use more
bolts,
molded sections, etc.

6. Eighth-inch rivets are supposed to be installed about 32 to a foot,
and most
RV builders think this --- --- is six inches.
:-)

Ron Wanttaja

I'm not sure where I read it, but I remember something about by using more
rivets the strength of the structure will not be compromised by the
occasional badly driven rivet.

Ric

On Wed, 29 Dec 2004 04:39:06 GMT, Ron Wanttaja wrote:

6. Eighth-inch rivets are supposed to be installed about 32 to a foot...

For those who are wondering, this isn't a "real" specification....

Ron Wanttaja

Ron Wanttaja wrote:
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:26:00 -0600, "Brian Sponcil"
wrote:


I'm currently considering embarking on an RV project and after checking out
a few in our local EAA chapter I ran across a seemingly curious fact. I
recall the builders telling me that their RV kits have around 10,000 rivets.
Compared to a Piper Comanche at 3,714 and a Warrior at 1,785 that's a heck
of a lot of rivets.

So the question is, why so many???


Don't know for sure, but here are my guesses:

1. It's possible the RV uses smaller rivets. Smaller rivets are easier for
amateur installers, while a manufacturer with trained riveters might use larger
rivets to cut down the man-hours needed for construction.

2. Most of the RV series are aerobatic, while the Pipers are not. More rivets
needed due to higher load factors

3. The designers add a bit of extra margin due to mistakes the amateur might
make.

4. The "N" number of rivets listed for Pipers may not include rivets used by
any companies that subcontract parts, while the builder does all the RV rivets.

5. RVs seem to use rivets *everywhere*...perhaps the Pipers use more bolts,
molded sections, etc.

6. Eighth-inch rivets are supposed to be installed about 32 to a foot, and most
RV builders think this --- --- is six inches. :-)

I agree with Ron's guesses (not sure about #6 though), and will add a
7th possibility. It may be that the larger companies use more machine
formed sections (stamped, hydroformed, etc.) that can be larger and thus
have fewer seams to be riveted.

Matt

Matt Whiting wrote:
Ron Wanttaja wrote:
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:26:00 -0600, "Brian Sponcil"

wrote:


I'm currently considering embarking on an RV project and after
checking out
a few in our local EAA chapter I ran across a seemingly curious
fact. I
recall the builders telling me that their RV kits have around
10,000 rivets.
Compared to a Piper Comanche at 3,714 and a Warrior at 1,785 that's
a heck
of a lot of rivets.

So the question is, why so many???


Don't know for sure, but here are my guesses:

1. It's possible the RV uses smaller rivets. Smaller rivets are
easier for
amateur installers, while a manufacturer with trained riveters
might use larger
rivets to cut down the man-hours needed for construction.

2. Most of the RV series are aerobatic, while the Pipers are not.
More rivets
needed due to higher load factors

3. The designers add a bit of extra margin due to mistakes the
amateur might
make.

4. The "N" number of rivets listed for Pipers may not include
rivets used by
any companies that subcontract parts, while the builder does all
the RV rivets.

5. RVs seem to use rivets *everywhere*...perhaps the Pipers use
more bolts,
molded sections, etc.

6. Eighth-inch rivets are supposed to be installed about 32 to a
foot, and most
RV builders think this --- --- is six
inches. :-)

I agree with Ron's guesses (not sure about #6 though), and will add a

7th possibility. It may be that the larger companies use more
machine
formed sections (stamped, hydroformed, etc.) that can be larger and
thus
have fewer seams to be riveted.

Matt


************************************************** **********************************

Whatever: The RV is sure a LOT more airplane than anything Piper
built !!!!

Bob Olds RV-4
Charleston,Arkansas


************************************************** **********************************

In article ,
"Brian Sponcil" wrote:

I'm currently considering embarking on an RV project and after checking out
a few in our local EAA chapter I ran across a seemingly curious fact. I
recall the builders telling me that their RV kits have around 10,000 rivets.
Compared to a Piper Comanche at 3,714 and a Warrior at 1,785 that's a heck
of a lot of rivets.

So the question is, why so many???


-Brian
N33431


One of the things I have noticed on Comanches is that their rivet
spacing for #3 rivets is about twice that spelled out in the manuals.
The result is that a lot of Comanches show signs of distress along those
rivet lines with too much space between rivets.

I have not checked Warriors that closely but would expect to see the
same thing there, too.

In article .com,
wrote:

Whatever: The RV is sure a LOT more airplane than anything Piper
built !!!!

You'd best smile when you say that, Pilgrim.

Dan
Vero Beach, Florida

(Yet when asked if I wanted to get checked out in the company Cheyenne,
I replied: "I don't really want to be going 400mph in something we
built")

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
Ron Wanttaja wrote:
On Tue, 28 Dec 2004 20:26:00 -0600, "Brian Sponcil"

wrote:


I'm currently considering embarking on an RV project and after checking
out
a few in our local EAA chapter I ran across a seemingly curious fact. I
recall the builders telling me that their RV kits have around 10,000
rivets.
Compared to a Piper Comanche at 3,714 and a Warrior at 1,785 that's a heck
of a lot of rivets.

So the question is, why so many???

SNIP

I agree with Ron's guesses (not sure about #6 though), and will add a
7th possibility. It may be that the larger companies use more machine
formed sections (stamped, hydroformed, etc.) that can be larger and thus
have fewer seams to be riveted.

Matt
====================
Regardless of the number of rivets, the actual riveting process is not all
that time consuming. Yes, you do have to clean 10,000 holes (at least
double, for the mating parts) and debur them, and even countersink/dimple a
lot of those holes, but you develop a rhythm that goes by rather quickly. I
found that the actual setting of rivets, once the prep is finished, is so
quick that it is almost anti-climactic.

So, if the original poster was concerned about the sheer number of rivets;
i.e., the level of effort, then I recommend that he not be concerned about
that. The systems work will consume the most time as well as looking at the
plans, figuring out the steps, etc. The learning part is the most fun, for
me.

Michael Pilla

.... or it that's a "problem" for you, do what I did.
RV7-A Quickbuild kit. Poof; lot's less rivets :-)

MJC

"Brian Sponcil" wrote in message
...
I'm currently considering embarking on an RV project and after checking
out
a few in our local EAA chapter I ran across a seemingly curious fact. I
recall the builders telling me that their RV kits have around 10,000
rivets.
Compared to a Piper Comanche at 3,714 and a Warrior at 1,785 that's a heck
of a lot of rivets.

So the question is, why so many???


-Brian
N33431