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midair in Bay Area Nov 7



 
 
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  #11  
Old November 10th 20, 10:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
George Haeh
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Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

For towplanes the critical case is below and to the front as sadly shown in this TSB Canada accident report:

https://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-r.../a19w0099.html

While the student and instructor were wearing parachutes, the canopies were still on when they hit the ground. I suggest the brief be "When you hear my canopy coming off, get the hell out NOW!"

Of course a Flarm can't ever help when it's not on.

An external antenna on the bottom of a glider is highly vulnerable to damage in outlandings and getting in and out of the trailer.

  #12  
Old November 10th 20, 11:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Waveguru
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Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

Glider-tow plane collisions happens every few years. This is the reason that at our operation, when the glider releases, he makes a slight turn to the right, and announces that he has released, and the tow pilot confirms on the radio the release. The tow pilot turns left and begins his decent. The glider stops turning right and keeps his eyes on the tow plane until they are both well clear of each other. After the release, the glider pilot is the only one that can see the other plane, and a collision with the tow plane is the biggest danger at that time. It is imperative that glider operations stop the practice of both the tow plane and the glider turning in such a way that NEITHER planes can see each other during separation. At least one of the planes needs to make sure there is a complete, positive separation, and communicate that. Almost all of us have radios these days. We need to use them better.

Boggs
  #13  
Old November 17th 20, 02:10 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
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Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

On Tuesday, November 10, 2020 at 8:39:41 AM UTC-8, Waveguru wrote:
I wonder if they were at least talking to each other? Ramy, were you hearing anything on the radio? Anyone else?


Boggs

They were not talking to each other and not aware of each other. They didn’t see each other until a split second before impact. One of the flarms was inop due to expired firmware. They were both cruising under a cloud street and collided head on at 5300 ft MSL (3500 AGL) with their left wings significantly damaging the wings. Both gliders entered vertical or negative dive which helped them bailing out quickly as they fell of the gliders as soon as they released the seat belts. One pilot was mostly unscratched, the other was hospitalized due to hard landing on a slope and is recovering from back injury.
I urge everyone to make sure to fly with operative powerflarm and upgrade the powerflarm firmware every year during the annual.

Ramy
  #14  
Old November 17th 20, 02:26 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darren Braun
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Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

I urge everyone to make sure to fly with operative powerflarm and upgrade the powerflarm firmware every year during the annual.

Indeed, during the annual. The perfect time to do it and then you'll not be later questioning, did I or didn't I?
A PSA is probably worth doing through RAS with a little how-to in spring for those of us in Northern Hemisphere. I always found those helpful.



  #15  
Old November 17th 20, 02:36 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tony[_5_]
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Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 7:10:11 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
On Tuesday, November 10, 2020 at 8:39:41 AM UTC-8, Waveguru wrote:
I wonder if they were at least talking to each other? Ramy, were you hearing anything on the radio? Anyone else?


Boggs

They were not talking to each other and not aware of each other. They didn’t see each other until a split second before impact. One of the flarms was inop due to expired firmware. They were both cruising under a cloud street and collided head on at 5300 ft MSL (3500 AGL) with their left wings significantly damaging the wings. Both gliders entered vertical or negative dive which helped them bailing out quickly as they fell of the gliders as soon as they released the seat belts. One pilot was mostly unscratched, the other was hospitalized due to hard landing on a slope and is recovering from back injury.
I urge everyone to make sure to fly with operative powerflarm and upgrade the powerflarm firmware every year during the annual.

Ramy


I hope FLARM realizes how lucky they are that the pilot did not die. They intentionally program a piece of safety equipment to brick itself once a year which then directly leads to the loss of life? I can see the crying widow in the courtroom now. Not pretty.
  #16  
Old November 17th 20, 02:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
George Haeh
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Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

Yikes! This is the THIRD collision I've heard of in the last year and a half between PowerFLARM equipped aircraft where one of the PowerFLARMs is not working. In the first two cases the towplane PowerFLARM was not operating, one because of undisclosed issues, the other because the towpilot was taxiing back to the hangar without turning on the PowerFLARM when a glider at the end of its landing run pulled in front.

3 Missed Opportunities
5 Write Offs
2 Fatalities
1 Hospitalisation

How much has/will your insurance go(ne) up ?
  #17  
Old November 17th 20, 04:11 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

Do you realize how irrational that comment is? It is entirely up to the pilot to update, they have a year to do it (firmware works for 2 years with a year overlap). If the pilot chooses, he can not have his parachute repacked, or not bother with the wing pins too. This should have the parachute and glider manufacturer quaking in their boots. In addition, it suggests flight is not possible without Flarm, which of course it used to be and often still is. I'm pretty sure every Flarm display will signal quite loudly that the firmware is inop. The alternative is to have a static system.

This is not to cast aspersions on the pilot, whom I know to be conscientious, plenty of people have and will again fly without or with inop Flarm. But to blame the manufacturer for this accident is ludicrous. If neither pilot had Flarm (legal and common) the outcome would be the same.

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 5:36:13 PM UTC-8, Tony wrote:
On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 7:10:11 PM UTC-6, Ramy wrote:
On Tuesday, November 10, 2020 at 8:39:41 AM UTC-8, Waveguru wrote:
I wonder if they were at least talking to each other? Ramy, were you hearing anything on the radio? Anyone else?


Boggs

They were not talking to each other and not aware of each other. They didn’t see each other until a split second before impact. One of the flarms was inop due to expired firmware. They were both cruising under a cloud street and collided head on at 5300 ft MSL (3500 AGL) with their left wings significantly damaging the wings. Both gliders entered vertical or negative dive which helped them bailing out quickly as they fell of the gliders as soon as they released the seat belts. One pilot was mostly unscratched, the other was hospitalized due to hard landing on a slope and is recovering from back injury.
I urge everyone to make sure to fly with operative powerflarm and upgrade the powerflarm firmware every year during the annual.

Ramy

I hope FLARM realizes how lucky they are that the pilot did not die. They intentionally program a piece of safety equipment to brick itself once a year which then directly leads to the loss of life? I can see the crying widow in the courtroom now. Not pretty.

  #18  
Old November 17th 20, 04:19 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Guy Acheson[_2_]
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Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

OK...I am ready to get flamed.
I have flown with a PowerFlarm for several years.
False alarms. Searching frantically for aircraft that I just never see or do not exist.
Flying with a group, all with Flarm, and several do not show on my screen because they have carbon fuselages and antennas that are blocked.
Flying head to head with another Flarm aircraft and no display.
Having other pilots inform me that they saw my plane on their screens when I was not flying...multiple times!
The programing and configuration issues are just too much.
My system is updated and confirmed with and by experts.
But, most are not.
For me, it has not been a dependable, reliable, predictable piece of equipment.
My experiences in France have been much better.
My understanding is that those systems are overseen/verified/inspected by aircraft mechanics.
Here in the USA...the Flarm system mostly increases my anxiety and complicates my flying day.
  #19  
Old November 17th 20, 05:03 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Gregg Ballou[_2_]
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Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

Have there been any glider mid airs in the last few years where the gliders didn't have Flarm?
  #20  
Old November 17th 20, 06:45 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
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Default midair in Bay Area Nov 7

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 7:19:41 PM UTC-8, Guy Acheson wrote:
OK...I am ready to get flamed.
I have flown with a PowerFlarm for several years.
False alarms. Searching frantically for aircraft that I just never see or do not exist.
Flying with a group, all with Flarm, and several do not show on my screen because they have carbon fuselages and antennas that are blocked.
Flying head to head with another Flarm aircraft and no display.
Having other pilots inform me that they saw my plane on their screens when I was not flying...multiple times!
The programing and configuration issues are just too much.
My system is updated and confirmed with and by experts.
But, most are not.
For me, it has not been a dependable, reliable, predictable piece of equipment.
My experiences in France have been much better.
My understanding is that those systems are overseen/verified/inspected by aircraft mechanics.
Here in the USA...the Flarm system mostly increases my anxiety and complicates my flying day.


One great thing about flarm is that it works even if you don’t know how to use it or confused by it. It is sufficient if only the other pilot knows. So I always tell the Luddite (no offense) to turn on their flarm and ignore it if they are not comfortable with it, and then spend some time in the winter learning it and improving it.

Regarding the question if there been midair’s without flarm. Well, the good news is that less and less people fly without flarm so there are less midairs also without flarm. Overall there are much less midairs, the only ones I recall either had inop flarms or happen in gaggles where flarm is no more effective than see and avoid.

Ramy
 




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