Stupid Americans! -- Stupid... Stupid... STUPID!!! __________-+__ ihuvpe

ChuckSlusarczyk wrote in message
...

Thank you very much,we'll remember that when you come begging to us to
save
your worthless asses one more time.

I believe the French came to our aid first during the American Revolution.



You are right but I am not sure their intent was so much to aid as to injure
England in any way possible. Their motivies then as with Iraq were purely
selfish.

You're absolutely, absolutely, right here, Robert. The French government's
goal
during the American Revolution was to stick it to the British, not foster the
cause of freedom.

But...how much difference does that make, when we're talking about a moral
obligation? If you are drowning and the guy who fishes you out of the water
is
the same guy to whom you owe thousands of dollars, are you then excused from
feeling any gratitude?

The point is, whether a given entity is morally obligated to assist someone
who
helped them earlier depends highly on what actions the entity is asked to
undertake.

I agree that France did not join the coalition out of purely selfish motives;
the only point that I dispute is whether they had some sort of moral
obligation
to join because of our part in liberating the country during WWII.


No, I don't believe that they owed any moral obligation to the US as a result
of WWII and I don't believe they had any direct obligation to support the US in
Iraq. I don't believe we should expect them to either. Then again, why should
we continue to maintain support for France and NATO if they are not going to
support us when needed?

What I do have a real problem with is their condemnation of the US when their
only reason was their own special interests. Those special interests may very
well have contributed to the problem by sidestepping the UN sactions and
funneling money and arms to Iraq.

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 06:22:02 -0800, Richard Riley
wrote:

And during the Revolution, the French declared that Lafayette was a
traitor and issued a death warrant for him. It was only at the end of
the war, when the French joined (to make life hard for the Brits) that
the order was lifted.

Lafayette did travel to the new United States against the express wishes of
King
Louis..but then, Benjamin Franklin didn't want him to go, either. An arrest
warrant to try to stop him leaving the country was issued *at the demand of
the
British ambassador*. Lafayette left France against the will of his king,
against the desires of two of the three American commissioners, and with two
British ships in hot pursuit. Ya gotta admire the guy.... nineteen years
old.
Sheesh.

In any case, the American alliance with France was signed less than eight
months
after Lafayette's arrival in the US. Little chance that he was considered a
"premature anti-Briton". :-)

However, Lafayette WAS declared a traitor and forced to leave France during
the
French revolution. He was one of the early leaders of the revolution, was in
command of its first formal armed unit (the National Guard). He was
considered
a traitor to his class by the Royalists, but others in the revolution didn't
consider him radical enough. He was eventually denounced as a traitor by
post-revolution national council and forced to flee.

On Tue, 09 Nov 2004 02:11:28 -0600, Barnyard BOb -
wrote:
So...is the lack of French gratitude any more immoral than our own?

Ron "a little more gas on the fire" Wanttaja
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

When you're as old as I am.... DEPENDS.
[Just in case you were seeking an answer.]

I have to defer to the one man who was at both the liberation of Paris and
the
Battle of Brandywine. :-)

Ron Wanttaja


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

"ahlbebuck" wrote

Although we have few american cars here, i am positive that there is NO
american car that comes even close to german engineering!

With best regards, ahlbebuck. E-mail:


So you admit you have few American cars to compare them with, either in
reliability, or engineering superiority. Yet you still make the claim.
Sounds unsubstantiated to me.

I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to work on
than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles and
years of use) I will not comment on the other American brands, because
unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not familiar with.

These ratings that were talked about in the previous post, are not pulled
out of the clear air. There is a reason for their inclusion in the list.
--
Jim in NC


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"Morgans" wrote in message
...

"ahlbebuck" wrote

Although we have few american cars here, i am positive that there is NO
american car that comes even close to german engineering!

With best regards, ahlbebuck. E-mail:


So you admit you have few American cars to compare them with, either in
reliability, or engineering superiority. Yet you still make the claim.
Sounds unsubstantiated to me.

I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to work
on
than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after many miles
and
years of use) I will not comment on the other American brands, because
unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not familiar with.

These ratings that were talked about in the previous post, are not pulled
out of the clear air. There is a reason for their inclusion in the list.
--
Jim in NC


Changing to OT. I can't imagine what any of this has to do with
rec.aviation balloon .Tex

"Tex Houston" wrote in message

Changing to OT. I can't imagine what any of this has to do with
rec.aviation balloon .Tex

This whole thread, a long one at that, has been OT. Why some seem intent in
cross posting to a dozen groups, is beyond me. Sometimes I catch it,
sometimes I don't.

Suck it up. Filter if you must, or ignore it. Life is too short to spend
it bitchin'. It took a while for me to "get it", but now I manage.
--
Jim in NC


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Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/1/2004

Hello, Morgans!
You wrote on Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:02:39 -0500:

?? Although we have few american cars here, i am positive that there is
?? NO american car that comes even close to german engineering! With best
?? regards, ahlbebuck. E-mail:
M So you admit you have few American cars to compare them with, either in
M reliability, or engineering superiority. Yet you still make the claim.
M Sounds unsubstantiated to me.

M I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to
M work on than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after
M many miles and years of use) I will not comment on the other American
M brands, because unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not
M familiar with.

M These ratings that were talked about in the previous post, are not
M pulled out of the clear air. There is a reason for their inclusion in
M the list. --
M Jim in NC

M ---
M Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
M Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
M Version: 6.0.788 / Virus Database: 533 - Release Date: 11/1/2004

OK apples with apples : BMW X5 / MB ML - absolute quality
Jeep Cherokee - not even close

BMW Z3/4 / MB SLK absolute quality
Chrysler crossfire - rubbish, not even the SLK engine can save the design

BMW 1 series / VW Jetta/Golf - quality
Chrysler Neon - rubbish

I drive a new diesel BMW 3 series - what a pleasure!
I also have a Cobra with a Corvette motor / box - even more fun!
You're right - the chevy is a pleasure to work on - regularly - the Beemer
never needs fixing, so i cannot comment!


With best regards, ahlbebuck. E-mail:

"ahlbebuck" wrote in message
...

OK apples with apples : BMW X5 / MB ML - absolute quality
Jeep Cherokee - not even close

BMW Z3/4 / MB SLK absolute quality
Chrysler crossfire - rubbish, not even the SLK engine can save the design

BMW 1 series / VW Jetta/Golf - quality
Chrysler Neon - rubbish

I drive a new diesel BMW 3 series - what a pleasure!
I also have a Cobra with a Corvette motor / box - even more fun!
You're right - the chevy is a pleasure to work on - regularly - the Beemer
never needs fixing, so i cannot comment!

My Chrysler was made in Mexico, my neighbor's Chrysler was made in Canada.
The two Hondas across the street were made in Ohio. The BMW X5 which you
say is absolute quality was made in Spartanburg SC.

Just what is an American car?

Tex

On 09 Nov 2004 23:35:44 GMT, osite (RobertR237) wrote:

No, I don't believe that they owed any moral obligation to the US as a result
of WWII and I don't believe they had any direct obligation to support the US in
Iraq. I don't believe we should expect them to either. Then again, why should
we continue to maintain support for France and NATO if they are not going to
support us when needed?

The question now, then is: Why does NATO even exist, anymore? It was intended
to oppose the Warsaw Pact nations...many of which have *joined* NATO, now. Why
continue to support thousands of US troops in Europe, especially with the
personnel and financial drain of Iraq?

What I do have a real problem with is their condemnation of the US when their
only reason was their own special interests. Those special interests may very
well have contributed to the problem by sidestepping the UN sactions and
funneling money and arms to Iraq.

And I respect your right to hold such an opinion, especially as it is formed
from your own analysis of the situation rather than from an unreasoning
expectation that they "owe us one."

Ron Wanttaja

On Wed, 10 Nov 2004 03:22:14 +0200, "ahlbebuck" wrote:

M I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to
M work on than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after
M many miles and years of use) I will not comment on the other American
M brands, because unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not
M familiar with.

OK apples with apples : BMW X5 / MB ML - absolute quality
Jeep Cherokee - not even close

BMW Z3/4 / MB SLK absolute quality
Chrysler crossfire - rubbish, not even the SLK engine can save the design

Wheee, doggies. This ain't a topic I'm all that interested in, but a co-worker
of mine has one of the BMW Z series (think it's a Z3). His matter-of-fact
description of the mechanical problems the car has, and the way the local BMW
dealer just absolutely shafts him, has just about ensured that *I'll* never buy
one. But by gosh, he just LOVES the car.

Sure, I have had some troubles with my Oldsmobile. But then, I only paid $18K
for it....

Ron "And I keep a couple of Volkswagens in the trunk" Wanttaja

No, I don't believe that they owed any moral obligation to the US as a
result
of WWII and I don't believe they had any direct obligation to support the US
in
Iraq. I don't believe we should expect them to either. Then again, why
should
we continue to maintain support for France and NATO if they are not going to
support us when needed?

The question now, then is: Why does NATO even exist, anymore? It was
intended
to oppose the Warsaw Pact nations...many of which have *joined* NATO, now.
Why
continue to support thousands of US troops in Europe, especially with the
personnel and financial drain of Iraq?


An excellent question! Why indeed? The only answer I can put forth is a big
brother style of morality that calls on the US to be the protector of the
world. Why should the US take on the job of liberating Iraq when we could
drain every drop of oil in the country and still not pay for the cost of the
war. It was not to directly protect our own national safety, Iraq posed no
direct threat to us. Iraq was far more of a threat to the middle east and
Europe than to us. We have taken on the role of world protector, even when
parts of the world don't seem to want our protection. We have become the big
brother that everybody hates for meddling in their business while hoping they
will be there if and when we want them.

What I do have a real problem with is their condemnation of the US when
their
only reason was their own special interests. Those special interests may
very
well have contributed to the problem by sidestepping the UN sactions and
funneling money and arms to Iraq.

And I respect your right to hold such an opinion, especially as it is formed
from your own analysis of the situation rather than from an unreasoning
expectation that they "owe us one."

Ron Wanttaja

The mistake our government continually seems to repeat is thinking that we can
buy the support of other countries with money and / or military support. While
the survivors of WWII may feel a debt to the US for our support and the
liberation of France, the generations that have come since do not see us as
liberators but as the bully on the block trying to impose our ideals and money
on them. That is the same problem we again face in Iraq.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)

M I have yet to find a foreign car that is designed to be more easy to
M work on than a GM, in ordinary maintenance, or major repairs. (after
M many miles and years of use) I will not comment on the other American
M brands, because unlike you, I will not comment on a subject I am not
M familiar with.

OK apples with apples : BMW X5 / MB ML - absolute quality
Jeep Cherokee - not even close

BMW Z3/4 / MB SLK absolute quality
Chrysler crossfire - rubbish, not even the SLK engine can save the design

Wheee, doggies. This ain't a topic I'm all that interested in, but a
co-worker
of mine has one of the BMW Z series (think it's a Z3). His matter-of-fact
description of the mechanical problems the car has, and the way the local BMW
dealer just absolutely shafts him, has just about ensured that *I'll* never
buy
one. But by gosh, he just LOVES the car.

Sure, I have had some troubles with my Oldsmobile. But then, I only paid
$18K
for it....

Ron "And I keep a couple of Volkswagens in the trunk" Wanttaja


I owned an AUDI for about 10 years and would love to be able to afford another
one. It was by far the best car I have ever owned and gave me almost 200
thousand trouble free miles. The transmission finally gave out and I made the
mistake of trading it in for a Chrysler. Outside of the transmission, the car
will still in great condition.


Bob Reed
www.kisbuild.r-a-reed-assoc.com (KIS Builders Site)
KIS Cruiser in progress...Slow but steady progress....

"Ladies and Gentlemen, take my advice,
pull down your pants and Slide on the Ice!"
(M.A.S.H. Sidney Freedman)