Other country air-to-air - File 01 of 28 - israel python family.jpg (1/1)

Nice review of the Python
now do you have any stats on the combat story of the python?

"ski2" wrote in news:PmkVi.1421$%Y6.1290
@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com:

Nice review of the Python
now do you have any stats on the combat story of the python?




No, sorry, only the pictures (and maybe a wikipedia reference)

Have always been facinated by the Peru - Ecuador Air War of 1995. First, for
the excellent way in which it was executed, stretching both air forces to
their resource and doctrinal limits, and secondly, for the fact that victory
went to the side who flew harder for just five minutes longer, thank you
Wellington. Not surprising was the lesson that in today's modern high tech
and expensive world, a small nation without wealthy coalition allies, can
not afford to even win a war. Of course, loosing one would have the effect
of total economic destruction. A point well taken by Pakistan and India
despite their nuclear chest beating.

For all nations in the Americas this might represent an important reminder
for future arms purchases. Significant risk is created when there is an
regional imbalance in offensive weapons. When done deliberately, it
escalates distrust and deters joint economic development. Prior to this 1995
war, Ecuador procured British Jaguars which was quickly countered by Peru
obtaining Su-22ís from the Russians. It was the start of a mini-arms race
that ended with this war. The bitter resentments after the war launched
Peru into seeking MiG-29 fighters and Su-25 attack aircraft. It was an
escalation, risky and expensive, and it introduced beyond visual range (BVR)
missiles to the force equations. The agreement for the aircraft with the
Belarus was void of support and weapons and it bypassed the Russian export
agencies who were offended. To right the program, Peru then had to literally
pay through the nose. Ecuador, realizing the ante-up cost of this move by
Peru, started negotiations. In the end, both countries regained their
senses. It took a few years, but they finally came around to reaching a
historic peace accord that solved their border territorial problems. A
historic precedent for the region.

I think we agree, and perhaps it needs to be looked at again, that for most
of the air forces in the Americas, there exist the roots of a common desire
for a coalition framework of allies that in some cases would include the US.
Worked into new aircraft sales, it could potentially offer incredible
savings featuring a common fighter configuration with a regionally shared
industrial program starting off with suitable defensive configurations. But
this did not happen for many reasons and as you can see no a quiet arms race
is rising between those nations whose governments deal in drugs and those
who still do not.

The Python missile was used in the Peru - Ecuador Air War. In Brazil, some
time ago, I was joined by Rafael's South American marketing director for the
Python missile, whom we shall call "Tali". Tali was at that time an Israeli
Air Force (IAF) Reserve F-16 pilot who flew combat in the Bekaa Valley Air
War (1982) but has three MiG-21 kills in Phantoms from the Yom Kippur War
(1973). . He gives one of the most convincing and informative briefings on
off-boresight all-aspect missiles ever. A real champion of the Python and
why not.

"Tali" briefed that there were more than 50 air-to-air kills attributed to
the Python family and there was one Peruvian loss attributed to it during
the border war with Ecuador. This was especially good to learn because
initial reports coming out of Latin America was that Peru lost three fixed
wing and two helicopters, all to handheld SAM's (Blowpipe/Redeye) and AAA
while two Ecuadorian losses were from AAA. So I thought it would be useful
to dig up the history and started to pull out all the old notebooks,
newspapers, and magazines.

In early 1995, the Peru-Ecuador border crisis, which had been on and off for
years, started once again in earnest. The disputed area was important but
was in the middle of the deep upper Amazon jungle region at the base of the
Condor Mountains (Cordillera del Condor) on the eastern edge of the Andes
which has few roads, rugged terrain, some outposts, limited communications,
and frequent encounters between patrols from both sides. As contact
incidents increased, troops from each army started massing in the Cenepa
Valley, one of the most vaguely defined areas. Skirmishes started on
26Jan95 and lasted until the night of 09Feb95 when air action began. Peru
charged that Ecuadorian helicopters attacked a Peruvian position and 36
Peruvian soldiers were killed along with at least 11 Ecuadorians. Each side
accused the other of being the aggressor in an unmarked 48-mile stretch of
border. This area was 600 miles north of Lima and 220 miles southeast of
Quito along the Amazon river.

On Friday, 10Feb95, three Peruvian warplanes were reported downed while
attacking the strategic Ecuadorian outpost of Tiwintza and President Alberto
Fujimori confirmed it the next day. He denied that Peru, whose military is
twice the size of Ecuador's, planned to invade its smaller neighbor, but
said the conflict "has escalated much more than was foreseen." Officially
the Ecuadorian Air Force said it shot down two aircraft and hit another with
unknown results. Fujimori's press conference also revealed that two
Russian-made Sukhoi Su-22 fighter-bombers and one U.S. made A-37 jet were
shot down on that Friday. He also said that the pilots of the A-37 and one
Sukhoi ejected safely but the other Sukhoi's pilot was missing. The
Peruvian Air Force on Saturday said two airmen were missing, without
specifying from which aircraft.

On Sunday (12Feb95) Peru's president announced that his forces shot down two
Ecuadorian fighter-bombers, but Ecuador's military command said only that
one of its warplanes was hit by Peruvian anti-aircraft fire. Fujimori
specified in his television interview that an Israeli made Kfir C2 and a
U.S. made A-37B were downed. The Ecuadorian military, stressing that one
aircraft was lost and not describing the type, said it was providing air
protection for ground troops in the disputed section of the Amazon. The
official statement on the second aircraft was that.... "the plane was hit
but was able to return to its base without major consequences."

Peru admitted to the loss of two helicopters and three planes in the
fighting. Ecuador still claimed it had downed two additional Peruvian
helicopters. Officially the fighting claimed the lives of 45 soldiers and
two civilians were killed by mines. Peru admits 36 of the total were its
soldiers and 60 were wounded, while Ecuador says nine of its soldiers have
died and 28 were wounded.

Peru's losses included 1 x US made Cessna A-37 "Dragon Fly" light attack
aircraft which are based out of Grupo 13 at Chiclayo and 2 x Russian Sukhoi
custom made Su-17Ms, now called the Su-22 "Fitter F" that reside with Grupo
12, "Los Tigres" at Lima Tambo Air Base. Both A-37B's and Su-22's were
forward deployed to the crisis area. The Fitters were acquired from Russia
to offset Ecuador's acquisition of Jaguar attack aircraft from the UK. 36 x
Su-22's were delivered between 1976 and 1978 with an additional 16 x
aircraft brought in 1980. Many mods have been added to these aircraft which
included a bolt-on French (Mirage F1) refueling probe. They were modified
to have the more powerful RD-29B engine, same as in the advanced MiG 23
Flogger G, in place of the normal Lyulka which in 1980 was something.
Because of this, they have a re-contoured and very "hot" back end which
despite flare dispensers, must make them especially vulnerable to hand-held
IR SAM's or air-to-air French MAGIC, US Sidewinder, and especially Israeli
Python missiles.

So the question was which aircraft was downed by the Python and were there
any recorded engagements, especially between Kfir and Mirage 2000 aircraft.
The curiosity about the Python 3's success was valid because both
Ecuadorian and Colombian Kfir's / Mirages were outfitted with them.

So here are the "best guess" results of the Ecuadorian-Peruvian Air War:

09Feb95
PuAF Canberra B(1).68's attacked Ecuadorian positions in the Cenepa Valley
at night

10Feb95
PuAF A-37B and Su-22 aircraft make daylight raids on Tiwintza and Cueva de
los Tayos. 2 x EqAF Mirage F-1JE's (806 & 807) and 2 x Kfir C2's (904 &
905) from Grupo 21 at 14:15 local were scrambled from Taura Air Base, near
Quayaquil for a Combat Air Patrol mission over the Cenepa Valley

CAP altitude at 17,000 ft, Maj Banderas acquires two targets on his radar at
9-11 km and VID's a pair of Su-22's located 2000 ft below his formation, he
locked-on to the closest Fitter.

The EqAF then downs 1 x PuAF Su-22 by Maj Raul Banderas from Grupo 21 at
Taura Air Base in his Mirage F-1EJ (FAE 807) using a French MATRA Magic 2
Air-to-Air Missile. After Maj Banderas fired his missile he breaks down and
the 2nd Fitter turns towards him and his wingman engages it

The EqAF downs 1 x PuAF Su-22 by Capt Carlos Uscategul, Wingman to Maj
Banderas, also from Grupo 21 at Taura Air Base with his Mirage F-1JE (FAE
806) using the French MATRA Magic 2 Air-to-Air Missile

On low egress Capt Uscategul has the lead and Maj Banderas reports that he
is being painted by a PuAF Mirage 2000 radar. They continue the bugout.

Continuing Air Cover over the Cenepa Valley was done by the Kfir C2 section
for the next 30 to 45 minutes when additional aircraft are sighted and
engaged.

EqAF downs 1 x A-37B by Capt Mata from Grupo 21 at Taura Air Base flying
his Kfir C2 (FAE 905) and using an Israeli Rafael Python III Air-to-Air
Missile.

No complete debrief on Capt Mata's engagement was ever released
(aspect/range, etc.), the Python use was deemed sensitive.

The PuAF Su-22's and A-37B's were normally based in the Lima area (805 km
south of Cenepa Valley) but were deployed to FOB's at Talara and Chiciayo.

EqAF also claimed 1 x Helo downed (no confirmation)

13 Feb 95
EqAF A-37B's based at Manta Air Base, escorted by Mirage F-1JE and Kfir C2's
attack Peruvian ground forces. The Mirage F-1's & Kfir's secure air
superiority and then call in the attack jets.

14 Feb 95
Peru claims to down 1 x EqAF A-37B (FAE 892) from the 2311 Combat Squadron
based at Manta Air Base with handheld SAM. Ecuador showed where the
aircraft was damaged but it returned to base having recovered with combat
damage.

The PuAF also claimed to have downed 2 x Kfir C2's but it was denied by the
EqAF and no missing aircraft were noted from inventory by the international
press.

The EqAf claimed downing 1 x Canberra but that also was no confirmed and no
aircraft were reported missing and a head count located all airframes.

17 Feb 95
Cease Fire

22 Feb 95
Peruvian forces supported by Chinook and Bell 212 helicopters attacked
Ecuadorian positions around Tiwintza. Some of the bloodiest ground fighting
of the conflict.

Many helicopters and transport aircraft on both sides were involved in front
line skirmishes and support missions, medevac, assault, troop lift, and
liaison flights. All during this time, the EqAF held air superiority over
the contested area.

26 Feb 95
Offense stalls and both sides settle for uneasy peace

The data provides that there was one Python III Kill from the a Kfir C2.
Now lets go back to the 50 Python Kills mentioned by "Tali" in the Rafael
literature. One would then expect that there would be 49 kills reserved for
all other Python users. For known air wars, this places the Israeli and PRC
Air Forces at the top of the user list. The IAF is obvious but the PRC
configured its MiG-21's and F-8's stationed along the Vietnamese-PRC border
with Python's. So the IAF contribution to the kill summary should be those
kills accomplished by the IAF before, during, and after the Bekaa Valley
days of 1982. The Python was first introduced into service on IAF F-15's in
1979, then with the F-4's & Kfir's, and then finally made suitable for the
F-16. But primary users were always and still are, the IAF F-15's.

So what would be the best guess of the IAF scorecard on the Python?

Period from IOC to Bekaa Valley Air War (only F-15's)
22Jun79 to 01Jun82
11 + 0.5 + 0.5 = 12 total F-15 Kills with half-kills going to Kfir and F-4
aircraft.
Python: Scored 3 Kills from 7 expenditures

During the Bekaa Valley War (only F-15's again):
02Jun82 to 22Jun82
36 total F-15 Kills
Python: 22 Kills from 44 expended including hangs & jettisons

Post Bekaa Valley period to present (only F-15's)
01Jul82 to present
4 total F-15 Kills
Python: N0 Kills recorded from 0 expended

That makes 25 Israeli Python Kills and 1 Ecuadorian on my list..... what
about the other 24 or so, and are there IAF Python Kills that have not been
mentioned. There may be one F-4 Kill during the Bekaa that could be the
only "open" possibility, but it was listed as an AIM-9D/G Kill. It was also
established that the Kfir Kill on 27Jun79 (1st F-15 engagement) was also
with an AIM-9D/G. Therefore, it is my understanding that the only Python
Kills in Israel are with F-15's. The numbers couldn't have been a mis-que
with prior Shafrir Kills, because that number approaches 100 and they were
primarily utilized by Mirage III's and Neshers.

Also, there was in the beginning a lot of growing pains with the Python.....
the size of the fins requiring the gull-wing launchers, hang-up firings,
seeker head mutual burning, multi-sortie reliability, off-boresight
integration, etc.... So the final shot Pk versus tries, expends, guides,
and actual hits is still up in the air.

Could the PRC have accomplished 24 x Kills during the various spats with the
Vietnamese Air Force? There were kills but no numbers that I saw ever
reached double digits, in fact they rest on around 8. In a visit to Warton
a fw years ago with a Polish contingent, I was seated with the Deputy VnAF
Commander going up from Farnborough. He just smiled when asked, and would
not confirm or deny the losses but said that things would never happen like
that again.

The Sidewinder AIM-9L/M data base has been easier to keep up. Considering
the 3 x USAF kills over Bosnia (Super Galeb) and the fratricide of a
Japanese JASDF F-15 by his wingman ("arm" switch problem) there are 126
launch events from 149 attempts that have netted 94 hits and 90 kills, and
that includes the 38 x F-16 AIM-9 Kills from Isreal (2 x AIM-9D's included)
and the 18 x Harrier Kills from the
Falklands War.

So the Python total could be at lest 34 and we can have fun with Tali about
the others. The Python III is a bigger then the Sidewinder with larger tail
fins. For the F-15 and later the F-4 it required an extended "gull-shaped"
rail adapter that moved the missile fins farther away from the main wing
pylon. For the F-16 it's higher weight made wing tip carriage questionable.
The Python IV and V are lighter and have smaller fins. They adapt to almost
all tactical fighters and are now especially well suited to the F-16.

ski2 wrote:
Have always been facinated by the Peru - Ecuador Air War of 1995.


Thank you for a superbly written article. Very interesting and thought
provoking.

--
Moving things in still pictures!

In the old days running down the specifics of all the various air wars was a
very exciting line of work and amazingly the data changes sometimes. The
Python numbers in Israel are still screwed up - but I think the Chinese
connection is really the Oops factor.... oh well


"®i©ardo" wrote in message
o.uk...
ski2 wrote:
Have always been facinated by the Peru - Ecuador Air War of 1995.
Thank you for a superbly written article. Very interesting and thought
provoking.

--
Moving things in still pictures!

To continue to beat the dog - the SHAFRIR was built primarily to up the
missile inventory numbers but to also provide a Sidewinder type IR weapon
with a larger warhead - and that was the reason the Sparrow was so popular
after the Phantoms showed up, but the Mirages, Neshers and Kfir's needed the
same "edge". The edge is not having an enemy shoot at you after you
effective "kill" him with a valid missile shot and hit then go screaming by
him and he pops off a missile just before he crashes, explodes, or ejects.
the big warhead was to create catastrophic destruction on impact to ensure
better survival of the IAF fighters.

The SHAFRIR's envelope was no better then the AIM-9B (30 degrees off the
tail if you were lucky) but that was obtainable by the IAF pilots, it was
the catastrophic destruction that was important and that has carried through
in all the Python models.

The eveolution is seekers brought high-off boresight shots to the head-on
arena to the full "first-sight - first kill" realities of today's multi-band
heads.