Thoughts on crash/article in Soaring?

Well said, Don.

Don Johnstone wrote:
Having read the articles I asked myself two questions
1 Could it happen to me?
2 Have I learned from it?
Despite my 10000 launches and 1300 hrs the answer to
both questions is a resounding yes.
snip

The accident investigation files are filled with cases where bad things
have happened to otherwise good pilots.

The articles also highlight
possible deficiencies in teaching and supervision and
it is right that these should be addressed. I would
urge everyone to read the articles carefully.

The entire thread contains many assertions and inferences that do not
appear to have really come from the articles -- I re-read them both
twice to assure myself that I had not missed anything. For example, I
did not detect he'd "blamed his training" for the accident. He did
point out that his initial training 30 years ago was only to the
minimum required to "pass," but not sufficient for the type of soaring
Jim would ultimately choose to enjoy. Who among us were a soaring
"black belt" when we endeavored on our first solo? Our first
check-ride? Our first cross country? Our first diamond? With two
diamonds in a 1-26, I know I have not yet "mastered" soaring, and I
keep the phrase "it could happen to me" in the forefront to help me
keep my guard up.

Jim pointed out that he sought more extensive training prior to flying
high performance gliders. So you've got a freshly minted mult-engine
pilots' license -- do you really think the insurance company will let
you immediately jump into the left seat of a 747? Training is life
long. We should know better and remember that what we carry are
licenses to learn. My glider ticket is dated more than 10 years ago,
and I still seek instruction, and know that there are things I'm not
(yet) qualified to do with an aircraft.

Jim was lucky, he
was able to write about his experience. Reading his
articles might just save YOUR life one day.


What I also commend Jim for showing is that he has not given up the
sport. He continues to volunteer his time and efforts to improve our
sport. In a very public way, he's shared private thoughts, experiences
and pains, and provided excellent examples of how we can return to the
cockpit if it does happen to us. He really showed us how to "get back
in the saddle," something I don't recall in ANY of my training, power,
glider, engineering...

Again, thank you Jim. Thank you Don. And thank you RAS.

MS wrote:
Another "mature" response by Chuck. You don't like my opinion, so
you insult me.

I see that you criticize Mr. Griswold but do not address the fact that
I have been unable to find you. Unless you are going to be honest with
us, quit bullying, and open your closed little mind, just shut up. I
look forward to your reply to my letter--if it does not come back
undeliverable and unknown like my email to you did several times.

Or are you just in such a need for attention that you are willing to
make an idiot of yourself just so people will feel compelled to address
you.

Just shut up.

There is a lot of talent being wasted in this thread, I'd rather like
to hear about other situations and what pilots did to recover from a
potentially bad situation.

Maybe you can all simply agree to disagree with the 1 primary opposing
opinion on this and let the thread die.

Im sure we are all very aware of how EACH of us feels about it!

Nuff-Said....lets move on.

I could use some mentoring on preparing for my first cross-country
flights and what sort of things one commonly has to deal/work with in
southern california.

I'd eventually like to get into 15m & club class competitions.....how
do I best get there?

Ray

compelling reading regarding XC flights
http://www.m-asa.org/currconv.pdf

\
jb92563 wrote:
There is a lot of talent being wasted in this thread, I'd rather like
to hear about other situations and what pilots did to recover from a
potentially bad situation.

Maybe you can all simply agree to disagree with the 1 primary opposing
opinion on this and let the thread die.

Im sure we are all very aware of how EACH of us feels about it!

Nuff-Said....lets move on.

I could use some mentoring on preparing for my first cross-country
flights and what sort of things one commonly has to deal/work with in
southern california.

I'd eventually like to get into 15m & club class competitions.....how
do I best get there?

Ray

jb92563 wrote:
There is a lot of talent being wasted in this thread, I'd rather like
to hear about other situations and what pilots did to recover from a
potentially bad situation.

Maybe you can all simply agree to disagree with the 1 primary opposing
opinion on this and let the thread die.

Im sure we are all very aware of how EACH of us feels about it!

Nuff-Said....lets move on.

I could use some mentoring on preparing for my first cross-country
flights and what sort of things one commonly has to deal/work with in
southern california.

I'd eventually like to get into 15m & club class competitions.....how
do I best get there?

Ray

Hi Ray,
X-Country - Consider participating in the Cross Country Camp at Air
Sailing. Pilots from all over the country come. Check out:
http://www.airsailing.org/xc_camp2006.htm
and get your reservation in for next year.
A good way to get into competitions is to work at a contest or crew for
an experienced racing pilot. Doesn't have to be a hot shot, but one who
is willing to introduce you to all that goes on at a contest. Then go
fly a sports class contest were people are friendly and helpful, such as
the Spring Avenal contest or the Air Sailing Sports Class contest.

Good luck

might gorilla

Our club operated the last 2 weekends at a "mountain" airport in
Darrington Washington. This is a 2500' paved strip at 540 msl. It is
aligned with the prevailing winds and is at the end of a long valley.
Usually considered by local XC pilots as a land-out field for our
mountain excursions; since the airport we usually fly out of was sort
of off-limits during the Arlington Airshow, so we just packed up and
headed to Darrington for a few weeks.

That being said, the first approach I made during our encampment would
be an example of "another way to skin a cat"

After being in the air for over 4 hours, the first 2 hours duking it
out with Ron on Gold mountain in survival flying mode; 1 to 2 knot
lift, tight to the ridge and very carefully making decisions regarding
360 turns or not.......then finding valley magic and making huge 360's
with flaps all he way down, in the middle of the valley, on auto pilot
mode.......it was time to land.

Of course now the whole valley is is lift, and we literally had to find
sink to help us get down, the air is rowdy, the valley is now a real
venturi and the treeline upwind of the airstrip is sending swirly
dervishes hurtling towards the runway and providing approaching pilots
with a handful of delights we normally don't see at our sedate home
airport.

So.........to make a long story short, I will admit I made a poor mid
field approach; too high and too close to the approach end of the
runway. I find that I cannot continue the downwind because Gold
mountain would probably fill my canopy with her trees, and the wind is
hurtling me along at quite a clip, and it is now time to turn to
final.......still way to high..........I turn final, full spoilers, not
going to make it.....well.......maybe I could stop at the end of the
runway..........maybe.........SOLUTION: do a 360, on the 270 side of
the 360 the spoilers come fully out, a slight slip........correcting
like crazy to stay alighned with the runway.....and then I am on the
ground and rolling out. I stop at the intersection and push off to the
ramp with the help of friends.

So what........I know a 360 in the approach is not standard practice,
but it worked, I flew 5 more times during our encampment there and made
perfect standard approaches despite the turbulence and rowdy air. The
360 worked, I'll do it again if needed, but it is not somthing I will
use unless the situation calls for it.

My bad? I don't think so..........I think those of us that do, do;
those of us that think we can, like to talk, or write, excessively
about it........ and those of use that can't...........(fill in the
blanks)

Cheers,
Brad
199AK





PeterK wrote:
Have you ever given any thought that there might be another method besides a
forward slip or spoilers?? Or let's just be narrow minded about this. There
is always more than one way to skin a cat. And by the way, there is nothing
new about the high parasitic drag approach is just you obviously never heard
about it. This sure smells like something personal to me as well. (IT
actually stinks!) Peter Kovari (and this case,unlike some others I dare
spell out my name)
"MS" wrote in message
ups.com...
Nothing personal at all. I guess it's because the absurdity of not
being able to land a glider on a 6,000 foot runway using the
conventional forward slip or spoilers. I often hear glider pilots
over analyze and try to "get to the heart of a deeper problem in order
to partially exonerate themselves. "It couldn't be me making several
huge lapses in judgement, so it must be my instructors fault for not
providing me proper training. My instructors are too conservative.
They did not teach me everything I needed to know." The author never
stated it that way, but that's what I got out of the article.

I am an aviation safety counselor and I once had to counsel an ATP who
ran out of fuel on a personal flight. Luckily, it ended without damage
to the aircraft or killing him, his wife or his small child. Part of
the "punishment" the FAA handed out was for him to give his story at
several pilot meetings. He began his story " Hey, if it could happen
to me, it could happen to anyone." Although he admitted to some of the
error, he was still in denial that ithe series of pilot errors he made
could be 100% avoided by him or other people.

I see some of the same theme in this article and it really upsets me.

I wouldn't have the problem with the article if the author did not
blame "conservativism" or his conservative flight training as the real
blame for his lack of airmanship, forethought and planning. With
spoilers and a slip, I can induce 1,000 ft per minute sink at 60kts
which should be sufficient to land on a 6,000 ft runway from 500 ft AGL
over the numbers. We practice rope breaks at 200ft AGL in a strong
headwind that becomes a strong tailwind once you complete the turn back
to the 4,000 runway. We rarely use up more than 3,000 ft to come to a
complete stop.

The article should have stated the inherent dangers with using a high
drag approach, diving at the runway with full spoilers and then making
all the adjustments. It's not conservative. It's not stable. It's not
needed.

MS
wrote:
There have been few articles in Soaring or subjects on r.a.s. which
have generated so much flak and so many "ad hominem" attacks against
the author of the articles. It seems that the most virulent ones were
sent anonymously or under initials only. Am I missing something here,
or is there something personal against Jim Skydell ? The whole point of
those two articles was to describe a series of events, and NOT excuse
them, so what is the beef ?

Cheers, Charles

Absolutely! Good story, the only problem that might
arise from doing a
360 on final is, if you are the first in a long string
of gliders lined up to
land. You might throw a lemon into someones plans for
a normal landing.
I guess land long and get off the RW.
Chuck

At 04:12 21 July 2006, Brad wrote:
Our club operated the last 2 weekends at a 'mountain'
airport in
Darrington Washington. This is a 2500' paved strip
at 540 msl. It is
aligned with the prevailing winds and is at the end
of a long valley.
Usually considered by local XC pilots as a land-out
field for our
mountain excursions; since the airport we usually fly
out of was sort
of off-limits during the Arlington Airshow, so we just
packed up and
headed to Darrington for a few weeks.

That being said, the first approach I made during our
encampment
would
be an example of 'another way to skin a cat'

After being in the air for over 4 hours, the first
2 hours duking it
out with Ron on Gold mountain in survival flying mode;
1 to 2 knot
lift, tight to the ridge and very carefully making
decisions regarding
360 turns or not.......then finding valley magic and
making huge 360's
with flaps all he way down, in the middle of the valley,
on auto pilot
mode.......it was time to land.

Of course now the whole valley is is lift, and we literally
had to find
sink to help us get down, the air is rowdy, the valley
is now a real
venturi and the treeline upwind of the airstrip is
sending swirly
dervishes hurtling towards the runway and providing
approaching pilots
with a handful of delights we normally don't see at
our sedate home
airport.

So.........to make a long story short, I will admit
I made a poor mid
field approach; too high and too close to the approach
end of the
runway. I find that I cannot continue the downwind
because Gold
mountain would probably fill my canopy with her trees,
and the wind is
hurtling me along at quite a clip, and it is now time
to turn to
final.......still way to high..........I turn final,
full spoilers, not
going to make it.....well.......maybe I could stop
at the end of the
runway..........maybe.........SOLUTION: do a 360, on
the 270 side of
the 360 the spoilers come fully out, a slight slip........correcti
ng
like crazy to stay alighned with the runway.....and
then I am on the
ground and rolling out. I stop at the intersection
and push off to the
ramp with the help of friends.

So what........I know a 360 in the approach is not
standard practice,
but it worked, I flew 5 more times during our encampment
there and
made
perfect standard approaches despite the turbulence
and rowdy air. The
360 worked, I'll do it again if needed, but it is not
somthing I will
use unless the situation calls for it.

My bad? I don't think so..........I think those of
us that do, do;
those of us that think we can, like to talk, or write,
excessively
about it........ and those of use that can't...........(fill
in the
blanks)

Cheers,
Brad
199AK





PeterK wrote:
Have you ever given any thought that there might be
another method
besides a
forward slip or spoilers?? Or let's just be narrow
minded about this.
There
is always more than one way to skin a cat. And by
the way, there is
nothing
new about the high parasitic drag approach is just
you obviously
never heard
about it. This sure smells like something personal
to me as well. (IT
actually stinks!) Peter Kovari (and this case,unlike
some others I
dare
spell out my name)
'MS' wrote in message
news:
...
Nothing personal at all. I guess it's because the
absurdity of not
being able to land a glider on a 6,000 foot runway
using the
conventional forward slip or spoilers. I often
hear glider pilots
over analyze and try to 'get to the heart of a deeper
problem in
order
to partially exonerate themselves. 'It couldn't
be me making
several
huge lapses in judgement, so it must be my instructors
fault for
not
providing me proper training. My instructors are
too
conservative.
They did not teach me everything I needed to know.'
The author
never
stated it that way, but that's what I got out of
the article.

I am an aviation safety counselor and I once had
to counsel an ATP
who
ran out of fuel on a personal flight. Luckily, it
ended without
damage
to the aircraft or killing him, his wife or his small
child. Part of
the 'punishment' the FAA handed out was for him to
give his story
at
several pilot meetings. He began his story ' Hey,
if it could
happen
to me, it could happen to anyone.' Although he admitted
to some
of the
error, he was still in denial that ithe series of
pilot errors he made
could be 100% avoided by him or other people.

I see some of the same theme in this article and
it really upsets
me.

I wouldn't have the problem with the article if the
author did not
blame 'conservativism' or his conservative flight
training as the
real
blame for his lack of airmanship, forethought and
planning. With
spoilers and a slip, I can induce 1,000 ft per minute
sink at 60kts
which should be sufficient to land on a 6,000 ft
runway from 500 ft
AGL
over the numbers. We practice rope breaks at 200ft
AGL in a
strong
headwind that becomes a strong tailwind once you
complete the
turn back
to the 4,000 runway. We rarely use up more than
3,000 ft to
come to a
complete stop.

The article should have stated the inherent dangers
with using a
high
drag approach, diving at the runway with full spoilers
and then
making
all the adjustments. It's not conservative. It's
not stable. It's not
needed.

MS
wrote:
There have been few articles in Soaring or subjects
on r.a.s.
which
have generated so much flak and so many 'ad hominem'

attacks against
the author of the articles. It seems that the most
virulent ones
were
sent anonymously or under initials only. Am I missing

something here,
or is there something personal against Jim Skydell
? The whole
point of
those two articles was to describe a series of events,
and NOT
excuse
them, so what is the beef ?

Cheers, Charles

Chuck Griswold wrote:

...the only problem that might arise from doing a
360 on final is, if you are the first in a long string
of gliders lined up to land. You might throw a lemon
into someones plans for a normal landing.


You take the energy you have and you fit it to the space available
-- that's gliding. If we expect that the only successful flight is
one that looks just like every other flight, we've just made the
same error that Skydell has warned us so selflessly against. There
are no "normal" landings in unpowered aircraft. They are either
successful or unsuccessful, depending on our goals for that
particular phase of the flight.

We plan and execute to the best of our ability within the bounds of
normal good-neighborliness, but first fly our own aircraft safely,
whatever happens. Everyone else will do the same.

This is beginning to take on a strong relationship to the "Skydivers
v Gliders" thread. Everybody needs to be ready for anything at all
times, especially around the pattern. It's most interesting at our
field where the skydivers land immediately adjacent to the landing
strip. By "immediately" I mean the northern edge of our strip is the
southern edge of the landing zone. We are happy if they don't
actually touch down on the runway, though the only thing I haven't
seen yet is a landing on the roof of one of the buildings on the
field. Surely that cannot be far off. So far, the jumpers have
accomplished only the occasional reduction in their own number, and
with no assists, thank God.

The jumpers do often cross the runway, even the short final approach
area, under canopy, en masse or strung out over a few hundred
meters. It can get interesting with several gliders, a dozen
jumpers, transient aircraft without a clue, and a single runway.
I've always thought recreational jumpers at least a little insane,
but watching them mix so freely with both gliders and powered
aircraft using the strip, I am convinced its worse than that.


Jack