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SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available



 
 
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  #41  
Old December 25th 18, 08:27 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
RW[_2_]
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Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 8:14:27 AM UTC-5, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 6:48:28 PM UTC-5, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 5:07:03 AM UTC-6, krasw wrote:
On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 7:24:50 AM UTC+2, wrote:
Has anyone asked if we could add some of the (missing) US centric glider models to the FAI handicap list?
That might make it easier to switch to their system.
Chris

Latest FAI Handicap list turned into fiasco because it took a political stance that all old club class gliders should be replaced by newer ones instead of objectively handicapping performance differences. No fair competitions are possible with these handicaps. Do yourself a favour: do not adopt FIA handicaps as a basis for wider handicap list. SC3 does not allow handicaps to any class other than club class so you have a freedom to do whatever you like in national level, though sending teams to Club class WGC without underhandicapped glider ('55, 304 etc.) would be a huge waist of money.


______________

Handicapping is an issue that seems to have been compounded by recent moves as described above (I haven't seen the final results - we just got done doing a comparison with what I believe were last year's handicaps). I tend to agree that handicapping ought be a best estimate for equalizing performance (understanding that no single number can be a perfect adjustment under all conditions), not a tool for preferentially advantaging certain gliders. In the US if we want to retain Sports Class and FAI Handicapped Classes, we may need to include some sort of wing loading adjustment formula. That might be layered on top of international handicaps, or adjustments made to that list and/or gaps for missing gliders filled. All of that is TBD.

Andy Blackburn


It's a bit challenging to talk about "European" or "FAI' handicaps as there are multiple systems in use e.g.:

- Sporting Code https://www.fai.org/sites/default/files/sc3ah_2018a.pdf
Club and Double seater only. Carries handicaps to 3 decimal places.
Provides for weight adjustments up and down
Colored by non-aerodynamic considerations mentioned earlier

- DMSt (German) - no weight adjustments https://www.daec.de/fileadmin/user_u...-WO_2018ki.pdf

- OLC - no weight adjustments. Can't figure a way to download this list

- SeeYou - no weight adjustment likely the same as OLC,
but again can't download or compare easily


Rest of the world have more mixed classes than we in US, and water is a pilot problem, not a score guy.
Ryszard
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  #42  
Old December 25th 18, 04:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 3:12:07 AM UTC-5, RW wrote:

Not safety first approach to me,: money first approach.


Money First? What a moronic statement.

Competition soaring.... its a gold mine.

  #43  
Old January 24th 19, 01:49 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 3:12:07 AM UTC-5, RW wrote:

Switching to FAI rules is not so rosy.
Every country out there has easy regionals to qualify to hard Nationals, but we let totally new pilots with silver badge to risk their lives at Nationals as long there is a space. Not safety first approach to me,: money first approach.
Ryszard
pilots to fly complicated tasks to fresh pilots.




OK, I will put my 2 cents in ... but everybody reading should understand that I flew the FIRST real contest of my life last summer -- region 3, at age 67 ... and I had my glider CFI at age 19. A demanding career, a child and divorce are the explanation of that. But I flew in the sky with Hank and Ryzard ... and I had a lot of fun and nothing got broken and I didn't even land out.

I suck as a contest pilot, but I've got over 2,500 hours of flying a lot of types, comm & CFI licenses, etc.

There are many comments about edge-case rules here that I don't even follow.. The comment that gets me to respond here is "new pilots with silver badge to risk their lives at Nationals" ... and I have not flown a Nationals .. .though the club-class Nationals was held at the Region 3 (we (flew as a team) entered the sports class in a Discus) and it didn't seem so intimidating -- the club class tasks weren't all that different from the sports class, and given that Peter Scarpelli whipped our class in a ASG-29 (flying 18 m), maybe we should have been in the club-class, and hence the Nationals.

I greatly appreciate all the friendly help we got, including Hank and Ryzard. I learned a lot -- hope to fly with you guys again. I hope nobody here sees anything I say as carping. But getting back to the point(s) ...

The SSA rules say "safe and fair competition" .. and I don't see why Nationals should be MUCH less safe than regionals. Longer and more difficult tasks ... sure. And I acknowledge that there is an inevitable increase in risks (particularly for the novice pilot) in longer, harder tasks. But most of the hazards of a soaring contest should not be that different, and for everybody's sake we should try to keep the hazards down, in all contests.

I'm not advising newbies to enter nationals; I would not do that. But if somebody says "risking their lives..." that sure gets my attention, and we should look really hard at anything that produces that.

Contests are very high work-load. Even as an experienced pilot, I was aware of the high work-load of being in my first contest, simply because so much was new ... and the rules are a big part of the workload for the unfamiliar. It's not obvious to me that the FAI rules are worse in this regard ... does anyone see specific issues that are? What are they?

I have no problem with experience criteria for entering nationals, if the experienced pilots see this as wise for safety ... interesting question is what they should be? This gets back to the question of what are the specific incremental risks of a nationals, and what experience would prepare/qualify for them?



  #44  
Old January 24th 19, 01:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Wednesday, January 23, 2019 at 8:49:09 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Tuesday, December 25, 2018 at 3:12:07 AM UTC-5, RW wrote:

Switching to FAI rules is not so rosy.
Every country out there has easy regionals to qualify to hard Nationals, but we let totally new pilots with silver badge to risk their lives at Nationals as long there is a space. Not safety first approach to me,: money first approach.
Ryszard
pilots to fly complicated tasks to fresh pilots.




OK, I will put my 2 cents in ... but everybody reading should understand that I flew the FIRST real contest of my life last summer -- region 3, at age 67 ... and I had my glider CFI at age 19. A demanding career, a child and divorce are the explanation of that. But I flew in the sky with Hank and Ryzard ... and I had a lot of fun and nothing got broken and I didn't even land out.

I suck as a contest pilot, but I've got over 2,500 hours of flying a lot of types, comm & CFI licenses, etc.

There are many comments about edge-case rules here that I don't even follow. The comment that gets me to respond here is "new pilots with silver badge to risk their lives at Nationals" ... and I have not flown a Nationals ... .though the club-class Nationals was held at the Region 3 (we (flew as a team) entered the sports class in a Discus) and it didn't seem so intimidating -- the club class tasks weren't all that different from the sports class, and given that Peter Scarpelli whipped our class in a ASG-29 (flying 18 m), maybe we should have been in the club-class, and hence the Nationals.

I greatly appreciate all the friendly help we got, including Hank and Ryzard. I learned a lot -- hope to fly with you guys again. I hope nobody here sees anything I say as carping. But getting back to the point(s) ...

The SSA rules say "safe and fair competition" .. and I don't see why Nationals should be MUCH less safe than regionals. Longer and more difficult tasks ... sure. And I acknowledge that there is an inevitable increase in risks (particularly for the novice pilot) in longer, harder tasks. But most of the hazards of a soaring contest should not be that different, and for everybody's sake we should try to keep the hazards down, in all contests.

I'm not advising newbies to enter nationals; I would not do that. But if somebody says "risking their lives..." that sure gets my attention, and we should look really hard at anything that produces that.

Contests are very high work-load. Even as an experienced pilot, I was aware of the high work-load of being in my first contest, simply because so much was new ... and the rules are a big part of the workload for the unfamiliar. It's not obvious to me that the FAI rules are worse in this regard .... does anyone see specific issues that are? What are they?

I have no problem with experience criteria for entering nationals, if the experienced pilots see this as wise for safety ... interesting question is what they should be? This gets back to the question of what are the specific incremental risks of a nationals, and what experience would prepare/qualify for them?


Nationals are no more life risking than regional contests. The skill level is higher by a bit, the tasking has more challenge, and the duration longer, but the risk to pilot safety is not greater. What Ryzard asserted is not true.
UH
  #45  
Old January 25th 19, 02:55 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
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Default SSA Competition Rules Committee Meeting Minutes Now Available

On Thursday, January 24, 2019 at 8:38:22 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Nationals are no more life risking than regional contests. The skill level is higher by a bit, the tasking has more challenge, and the duration longer, but the risk to pilot safety is not greater. What Ryzard asserted is not true.
UH


One hopes that is true ... my belief is that risks on course depend very strongly on the terrain/venue and the contest committee; wiser/warier pilots can pick their venues, but have no control over tasking.

Starts & weather strike me as the greatest risks; I won't pontificate as I'm not so experienced at contests.

Ryzard's sarcastic comment about handicapping

"Our US clubs are swarmed with D2 and V1 and LS6 and ASW28, this is why they are in US Club Class "

is bang on, but is not about the contest rules per se, nor about hazards. I don't know any American club with glider(s) that have handicaps much better than 1, let alone sending anybody with one to a contest. L-201s, Std. Cirrus, G-102 ... club gliders rarely get better than that in the USA. Lord help you if you try to fly a 1-26 in the sport class ... but there's 1-26 class.

I have some arguments with the handicapping scheme, but that's an argument for another day -- don't think there is any possibility of a fixed one-coefficient handicap that will be fair, and seemingly nobody wants to deal with anything else.

I do understand why the best pilots want to fly sailplanes at the top end of the handicap range in any handicap class -- it's to have any chance at all of dropping the leeches.

I learned a bunch of things from flying the Region 3 (really great contest BTW and very friendly place and people, big thanks to the folks at Finger Lakes who put it on) ... but one of them is "the Hank Nixon rule" ... do not follow the leader that the pack has been leeching over the high-ground to the last or second-to-last turnpoint ... from 500' below. You will end up landing out in difficult terrain.

How do I know this? I ended up doing several of these retrieves. Hank and his friends came along to help one of the worst of these. (Thanks!) rec.soaring doesn't allow photos, or I'd post one of these land-outs -- a super-experienced pilot pulled off a no-harm-done landing in a wretched field with about a 20° slope, taller-than-knee-deep alfalfa, difficult access .... and ticks.

Another one of these scrape-off-the-leeches retrieves rescued two guys out of the same badly-rutted soy field, and featured all of us casting about for about a 1/2 hour to find a tail-wheel broken off -- I found most of it. (for anyone reading this who doesn't know, tailwheels on most fiberglass sailplanes are designed to intentionally break off to prevent worse damage to the fuselage ... this is a nuisance, not a crisis)

I was flying the sports class, starting behind the club class, and didn't want to leech but there wasn't anybody obvious to leech if I'd wanted to. (Leeching Peter Scarpelli in his ASG-29 ... not!) I flew conservatively on my own and never landed out.

The Finger Lakes region has excellent landing sites generally but it does have ridges, many of which even have good landing sites on top (but not all) ... most top out at about 2500' but a few go over 3000' even 3500' ... we never had a day with cloud bases much over 4500' ... funny how every task had a late turn-point over the high-ground! Safe and fair, I completely agree. It's pilot judgement: if you are leeching and you are low, time to quit leeching, gain some altitude ... admit reality. A really safety-minded contest committee could arrange a designated "leeches land here" field though?

Transitions ... safety and handicaps are about transitions too.

If you've had the patience to get this far with me, my point is that most contests should be FUN! Handicapping is never going to be "fair:" just go out and fly and try to beat yourself. If you are really serious racer material, don't fly the handicapped classes ... and probably you would be irritated to have me in your contest, except I'll be the cannon-fodder that makes you look good.

I can probably adjust to FAI rules ... no biggie. The problem of why America's teams look like chumps in international competitions isn't one that I'm going to fix; I'll never be in anything like that league. But I do think it is a good thing for the USA to align with the world rules, just on general principles. And folks, we've got to stop the idea that we need kiddie-wheel rules because we are Americans. If there are problems with the FAI rules then we should work to get those changed, and I'd surely think that if those problems are real the rest of the world would see the point.
 




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