midair in Bay Area Nov 7

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 14:30:21 -0800, wrote:

The question is how should the FLARM team do that? A graceful
degradation in performance coupled with annoying beeps, as some have
suggested, is surely preferable to ceasing to function altogether,
especially given that lives may be at stake and not just the lives of
those who failed to upgrade their firmware, but also the lives of those
who's FLARM firmware is up-to-date, but who may end up colliding with
someone who's FLARM is disabled because the firmware is out of date.

Good point: you really need to read the manual for your FLARM unit AND
the display to understand what should appear at start-up because thats
when it will tell you about faults and out of date software. You need to
read instructions for both due to the large number of different displays
that can be used. The way my FLARM, a RedBox with the 40mm clockface LED
display, indicates a fault will be very different from what another Red
Box with an LX or Butterfly OLED display, a PowerFlarm, or what the FLARM
built into an LX Nav vario is likely to show.

I'd suggest that, since the FLARM team can't know what display is
connected, then the FLARM team can't do anything much different from what
they do now to indicate faults, i.e. send the fault code to the display
and let that decide how the format and display it, so really is up to the
pilot to know how their unit says 'FAULT!' and understand what it means.

I generally watch my FLARM come up when its powered on, at least long
enough to see the LED test flash. I also look at it as part of pre-launch
checks and will not launch without Power and GPS showing steady green, Tx
flashing green and everything else off: this is what mine should be
showing when it is stationary on the ground.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Martin Gregorie wrote on 11/18/2020 3:53 PM:
I generally watch my FLARM come up when its powered on, at least long
enough to see the LED test flash. I also look at it as part of pre-launch
checks and will not launch without Power and GPS showing steady green, Tx
flashing green and everything else off: this is what mine should be
showing when it is stationary on the ground.

I also expect to see other Flarms while preflighting the glider before flying, and before
takeoff - no Flarms seen means I likely have a problem and should determine what it is.

But really: do it at the annual; do it when you are getting the glider ready for the 1st flight
of the season. It's not that hard - write yourself notes if you can't remember.

And then, check it on the ground before you launch - can you see the other gliders around you,
that are also getting ready, and have their panel turned on?

Can't depend on yourself to do those things? Get a compatible display that will show the
expiration situation, and learn how to use it!

It's not hard to avoid an expired firmware. You can still decide to fly with an expired Flarm,
but you have multiple opportunities to do the right thing.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 10:19:41 PM UTC-5, Guy Acheson wrote:
OK...I am ready to get flamed.
I have flown with a PowerFlarm for several years.
False alarms. Searching frantically for aircraft that I just never see or do not exist.
Flying with a group, all with Flarm, and several do not show on my screen because they have carbon fuselages and antennas that are blocked.
Flying head to head with another Flarm aircraft and no display.
Having other pilots inform me that they saw my plane on their screens when I was not flying...multiple times!
The programing and configuration issues are just too much.
My system is updated and confirmed with and by experts.
But, most are not.
For me, it has not been a dependable, reliable, predictable piece of equipment.
My experiences in France have been much better.
My understanding is that those systems are overseen/verified/inspected by aircraft mechanics.
Here in the USA...the Flarm system mostly increases my anxiety and complicates my flying day.

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:00:53 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

I also expect to see other Flarms while preflighting the glider before
flying, and before takeoff - no Flarms seen means I likely have a
problem and should determine what it is.

Is that a difference between FLARM and PowerFlarm?

I've never used Power FLARM, but I don't recall any FLARM showing traffic
when stationary: even waiting on the second winch queue I don't recall
the glider on the other cable showing as it launched nor a tow taking off
on the far side of the field. Or, for that matter, landing gliders
triggering it when I'm in the launch queue, so in front of and 100-200m
to one side of the landing glider. Then again, none of these should
trigger an alarm since a collision is not possible in any of these cases
is a collision possible. OTOH, even a taxiing tug 2-300m away can trigger
an alarm while I'm rolling up to the launch point after landing: very
disconcerting it is too when it happens!

But really: do it at the annual; do it when you are getting the glider
ready for the 1st flight of the season. It's not that hard - write
yourself notes if you can't remember.

Couldn't agree more. I always used to do that and now its a mandatory
item on the BGA-approved Annuals check-list.

I also like to run an early flight from a new season through the FLARM
trace analyser to check the range in all directions and make sure its
working correctly and the antenna didn't get displaced during the last
Annual.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Monday, November 16, 2020 at 10:19:41 PM UTC-5, Guy Acheson wrote:
OK...I am ready to get flamed.
I have flown with a PowerFlarm for several years.
False alarms. Searching frantically for aircraft that I just never see or do not exist.
Flying with a group, all with Flarm, and several do not show on my screen because they have carbon fuselages and antennas that are blocked.
Flying head to head with another Flarm aircraft and no display.
Having other pilots inform me that they saw my plane on their screens when I was not flying...multiple times!
The programing and configuration issues are just too much.
My system is updated and confirmed with and by experts.
But, most are not.
For me, it has not been a dependable, reliable, predictable piece of equipment.
My experiences in France have been much better.
My understanding is that those systems are overseen/verified/inspected by aircraft mechanics.
Here in the USA...the Flarm system mostly increases my anxiety and complicates my flying day.
My observation is that the parachute doesn't quite working because it hasn't been repacked, the wing pins are another story but not really apropos. A better solution would be to incorporate some annoying warning message, much like the seat belt warning in cars.

Martin Gregorie wrote on 11/18/2020 5:48 PM:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:00:53 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

I also expect to see other Flarms while preflighting the glider before
flying, and before takeoff - no Flarms seen means I likely have a
problem and should determine what it is.

Is that a difference between FLARM and PowerFlarm?

I've never used Power FLARM, but I don't recall any FLARM showing traffic
when stationary: even waiting on the second winch queue I don't recall
the glider on the other cable showing as it launched nor a tow taking off
on the far side of the field. Or, for that matter, landing gliders
triggering it when I'm in the launch queue, so in front of and 100-200m
to one side of the landing glider. Then again, none of these should
trigger an alarm since a collision is not possible in any of these cases
is a collision possible. OTOH, even a taxiing tug 2-300m away can trigger
an alarm while I'm rolling up to the launch point after landing: very
disconcerting it is too when it happens!

But really: do it at the annual; do it when you are getting the glider
ready for the 1st flight of the season. It's not that hard - write
yourself notes if you can't remember.

Couldn't agree more. I always used to do that and now its a mandatory
item on the BGA-approved Annuals check-list.

I also like to run an early flight from a new season through the FLARM
trace analyser to check the range in all directions and make sure its
working correctly and the antenna didn't get displaced during the last
Annual.

I tend to use Flarm interchangeably with PowerFlarm, but as a US pilot, PowerFlarm is what I
have, and it does show the position of any PowerFlarm equipped glider within range, even if
both gliders are stationary on the ground. It doesn't generate collision alarms it that situation.


--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to email me)
- "A Guide to Self-Launching Sailplane Operation"
https://sites.google.com/site/motorg...ad-the-guide-1

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:44:11 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Martin Gregorie wrote on 11/18/2020 5:48 PM:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:00:53 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

I also expect to see other Flarms while preflighting the glider before
flying, and before takeoff - no Flarms seen means I likely have a
problem and should determine what it is.

Is that a difference between FLARM and PowerFlarm?

I've never used Power FLARM, but I don't recall any FLARM showing
traffic when stationary: even waiting on the second winch queue I don't
recall the glider on the other cable showing as it launched nor a tow
taking off on the far side of the field. Or, for that matter, landing
gliders triggering it when I'm in the launch queue, so in front of and
100-200m to one side of the landing glider. Then again, none of these
should trigger an alarm since a collision is not possible in any of
these cases is a collision possible. OTOH, even a taxiing tug 2-300m
away can trigger an alarm while I'm rolling up to the launch point
after landing: very disconcerting it is too when it happens!

But really: do it at the annual; do it when you are getting the glider
ready for the 1st flight of the season. It's not that hard - write
yourself notes if you can't remember.

Couldn't agree more. I always used to do that and now its a mandatory
item on the BGA-approved Annuals check-list.

I also like to run an early flight from a new season through the FLARM
trace analyser to check the range in all directions and make sure its
working correctly and the antenna didn't get displaced during the last
Annual.

I tend to use Flarm interchangeably with PowerFlarm, but as a US pilot,
PowerFlarm is what I have, and it does show the position of any
PowerFlarm equipped glider within range, even if both gliders are
stationary on the ground. It doesn't generate collision alarms it that
situation.

I should have added that I'm not surprised: to a first approximation on a
gliding club field nothing with FLARM fitted moves unless its taking off,
landing or is a tug taxiing, so there's little or no benefit in a
stationery glider flagging up moving aircraft for its pilot.

OTOH I can see that it would be useful for a Power Flarm to do so,
especially one with ADS-B in since, on a field that is also used by
powered aircraft, it would be able to flag up most? all? aircraft
movements, especially those on approach while you're waiting at the hold
point.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

It's a function of the display, rather than what type of Flarm, Martin.

If you have a display that only shows alarms, you won't see anything on the ground when you're on the ground. On the other hand, if you have a traffic display, you'll see it all.

Both Flarm and PowerFlarm send out both alarms and traffic data. Some displays just show the alarms.

Paul

On Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 3:23:55 AM UTC, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:44:11 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Martin Gregorie wrote on 11/18/2020 5:48 PM:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:00:53 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

I also expect to see other Flarms while preflighting the glider before
flying, and before takeoff - no Flarms seen means I likely have a
problem and should determine what it is.

Is that a difference between FLARM and PowerFlarm?

I've never used Power FLARM, but I don't recall any FLARM showing
traffic when stationary: even waiting on the second winch queue I don't
recall the glider on the other cable showing as it launched nor a tow
taking off on the far side of the field. Or, for that matter, landing
gliders triggering it when I'm in the launch queue, so in front of and
100-200m to one side of the landing glider. Then again, none of these
should trigger an alarm since a collision is not possible in any of
these cases is a collision possible. OTOH, even a taxiing tug 2-300m
away can trigger an alarm while I'm rolling up to the launch point
after landing: very disconcerting it is too when it happens!

But really: do it at the annual; do it when you are getting the glider
ready for the 1st flight of the season. It's not that hard - write
yourself notes if you can't remember.

Couldn't agree more. I always used to do that and now its a mandatory
item on the BGA-approved Annuals check-list.

I also like to run an early flight from a new season through the FLARM
trace analyser to check the range in all directions and make sure its
working correctly and the antenna didn't get displaced during the last
Annual.

I tend to use Flarm interchangeably with PowerFlarm, but as a US pilot,
PowerFlarm is what I have, and it does show the position of any
PowerFlarm equipped glider within range, even if both gliders are
stationary on the ground. It doesn't generate collision alarms it that
situation.
I should have added that I'm not surprised: to a first approximation on a
gliding club field nothing with FLARM fitted moves unless its taking off,
landing or is a tug taxiing, so there's little or no benefit in a
stationery glider flagging up moving aircraft for its pilot.

OTOH I can see that it would be useful for a Power Flarm to do so,
especially one with ADS-B in since, on a field that is also used by
powered aircraft, it would be able to flag up most? all? aircraft
movements, especially those on approach while you're waiting at the hold
point.
--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Thu, 19 Nov 2020 01:58:03 -0800, Paul Ruskin wrote:

It's a function of the display, rather than what type of Flarm, Martin.

If you have a display that only shows alarms, you won't see anything on
the ground when you're on the ground. On the other hand, if you have a
traffic display, you'll see it all.

Both Flarm and PowerFlarm send out both alarms and traffic data. Some
displays just show the alarms.

Thanks, Paul. That makes sense.


--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

Hi

Regarding annual maintenance: We have recently published a manual for that: https://www.flarm.com/ica. We hope that this clarifies some important questions and streamlines the process. Appendices A and B contain checklists that you can run through during installation or maintenance. This is a new initiative and I'm sure the document can still be improved. Feedback is thus highly appreciated.

Regarding the reports on false/nuisance warnings: There are (of course) limits to what a FLARM can do, but unless you have a large gaggle of gliders, the alarming behavior should be very reasonable. If you think something is not working (or should be improved), please do send log files of the incident (https://flarm.com/about-us/contact/). We're happy to have a look.

Best Regards
- Urban



On Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 10:58:06 AM UTC+1, Paul Ruskin wrote:
It's a function of the display, rather than what type of Flarm, Martin.

If you have a display that only shows alarms, you won't see anything on the ground when you're on the ground. On the other hand, if you have a traffic display, you'll see it all.

Both Flarm and PowerFlarm send out both alarms and traffic data. Some displays just show the alarms.

Paul
On Thursday, November 19, 2020 at 3:23:55 AM UTC, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 18:44:11 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

Martin Gregorie wrote on 11/18/2020 5:48 PM:
On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 17:00:53 -0800, Eric Greenwell wrote:

I also expect to see other Flarms while preflighting the glider before
flying, and before takeoff - no Flarms seen means I likely have a
problem and should determine what it is.

Is that a difference between FLARM and PowerFlarm?

I've never used Power FLARM, but I don't recall any FLARM showing
traffic when stationary: even waiting on the second winch queue I don't
recall the glider on the other cable showing as it launched nor a tow
taking off on the far side of the field. Or, for that matter, landing
gliders triggering it when I'm in the launch queue, so in front of and
100-200m to one side of the landing glider. Then again, none of these
should trigger an alarm since a collision is not possible in any of
these cases is a collision possible. OTOH, even a taxiing tug 2-300m
away can trigger an alarm while I'm rolling up to the launch point
after landing: very disconcerting it is too when it happens!

But really: do it at the annual; do it when you are getting the glider
ready for the 1st flight of the season. It's not that hard - write
yourself notes if you can't remember.

Couldn't agree more. I always used to do that and now its a mandatory
item on the BGA-approved Annuals check-list.

I also like to run an early flight from a new season through the FLARM
trace analyser to check the range in all directions and make sure its
working correctly and the antenna didn't get displaced during the last
Annual.

I tend to use Flarm interchangeably with PowerFlarm, but as a US pilot,
PowerFlarm is what I have, and it does show the position of any
PowerFlarm equipped glider within range, even if both gliders are
stationary on the ground. It doesn't generate collision alarms it that
situation.
I should have added that I'm not surprised: to a first approximation on a
gliding club field nothing with FLARM fitted moves unless its taking off,
landing or is a tug taxiing, so there's little or no benefit in a
stationery glider flagging up moving aircraft for its pilot.

OTOH I can see that it would be useful for a Power Flarm to do so,
especially one with ADS-B in since, on a field that is also used by
powered aircraft, it would be able to flag up most? all? aircraft
movements, especially those on approach while you're waiting at the hold
point.
--
--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org