Change the rules for the National Guard.?

ArtKramr wrote:

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed managed to
wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National Guard units." -- Colin Powell, My
American Journey, 1995

You seem to be merging two different questions.

Powell stating the "wangling" of Reserve/Guard slots during
the Vietnam War, and whether GWB was hiding in the Guard
for this purpose or not.

From what I've heard, Powell was correct about the practice,
but I'm not at all certain that just because GWB was the son
of a "powerful and well-placed" person, that this was the
case for him.

Given his background and personal integrity, I'm not at all
certain Dad would have cooperated in such a move. Certainly
no evidence that I'm aware of that this was the case.

So we simply end up with another "guilt by association" charge.


SMH

Kevin Brooks wrote:

Understandable. But I doubt you'd be so crass as to make the statement that
Art did. Art likes to play up the "look at the noble sacrifices we (I) made,

Art was right on the money as to how the Guard one time was as
far as I can tell.

My father always said if he had gone into the Mass Air Guard
after retirement from the USAF, he'd have left it a General.
This would have been mid 60's through early 70's. Vietnam War
period. He regarded it merely as a "boys club" where most
effort made was sharpening your drinking skills. Correct or
not, that was his view at that time.

I deserve special accolades and reverence" crap; OTOH, he chooses to cast
slurs upon the dedication of those who are serving, and indeed those who
have actually shed more blood than he did. Even worse, he does this despite
repeated corrections from a number of people, you included. I know, it's

Everyone here plays this game to varying degree. There's a NG
hierarchy. At the bottom, are the types with no personal
military experience beyond bratdom. At the top are the combat
flyers, of which Art is one.

One group can always shut down the group below him by demanding
"what's your experience?" For Art trashing you, it might be
"How many bullets have whizzed by your head?" For you to trash
the level below you, mere ask "Tell us exactly what your military
experience might be?"

just another case of Art being the asshole he really is--but that does not
mean he gets to take free potshots at those who are demonstrating every bit
as much dedication to duty that he did, if not more (some of these guys have
been serving a lot longer years, with less appreciation demonstrated, than
Art ever experienced). Sorry if my "calling a spade a spade" in the case of
Art upsets you, Ed, but IMO he is reaping what he sows.

Well I think it does give him the right. And of course, you
have the right to correct or update him. If he doesn't take
to the correction, it's just a loss of some keystrokes.

Yeah he's a crotchety, cantankerous type. No use getting bent
out of shape over it. You're not the defender of the Guard,
called to do battle over its honor when maligned.

Quite frankly, I admire Art's no nonsense, no compromise
attitudes. Could probably exercise it in a less argumentative
way, but that's just a matter of style. As I've said before,
Art's a "time capsule" of a period of American history now
seemingly gone, where a nation was united as never before, and
accepted no mitigation of its fury toward an enemy. Todays
more mild or PC or outright revisionism doesn't go over well.

Doesn't mean he's correct in what he says all time, or even
most of the time. Keep him in context and keep your Me 109
well away from his B-26, even in todays skies!


SMH

"fudog50" wrote in message
...
What would really help Tarver, is if you stay the hell out of subjects
you know absolutely zero about and quit spouting off.

I was in the ANG, dip****.

Subject: Change the rules for the National Guard.?
From: Stephen Harding
Date: 2/21/04 7:14 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Kevin Brooks wrote:

Understandable. But I doubt you'd be so crass as to make the statement that
Art did. Art likes to play up the "look at the noble sacrifices we (I)
made,

Art was right on the money as to how the Guard one time was as
far as I can tell.

My father always said if he had gone into the Mass Air Guard
after retirement from the USAF, he'd have left it a General.
This would have been mid 60's through early 70's. Vietnam War
period. He regarded it merely as a "boys club" where most
effort made was sharpening your drinking skills. Correct or
not, that was his view at that time.

I deserve special accolades and reverence" crap; OTOH, he chooses to cast
slurs upon the dedication of those who are serving, and indeed those who
have actually shed more blood than he did. Even worse, he does this despite
repeated corrections from a number of people, you included. I know, it's

Everyone here plays this game to varying degree. There's a NG
hierarchy. At the bottom, are the types with no personal
military experience beyond bratdom. At the top are the combat
flyers, of which Art is one.

One group can always shut down the group below him by demanding
"what's your experience?" For Art trashing you, it might be
"How many bullets have whizzed by your head?" For you to trash
the level below you, mere ask "Tell us exactly what your military
experience might be?"

just another case of Art being the asshole he really is--but that does not
mean he gets to take free potshots at those who are demonstrating every bit
as much dedication to duty that he did, if not more (some of these guys
have
been serving a lot longer years, with less appreciation demonstrated, than
Art ever experienced). Sorry if my "calling a spade a spade" in the case of
Art upsets you, Ed, but IMO he is reaping what he sows.

Well I think it does give him the right. And of course, you
have the right to correct or update him. If he doesn't take
to the correction, it's just a loss of some keystrokes.

Yeah he's a crotchety, cantankerous type. No use getting bent
out of shape over it. You're not the defender of the Guard,
called to do battle over its honor when maligned.

Quite frankly, I admire Art's no nonsense, no compromise
attitudes. Could probably exercise it in a less argumentative
way, but that's just a matter of style. As I've said before,
Art's a "time capsule" of a period of American history now
seemingly gone, where a nation was united as never before, and
accepted no mitigation of its fury toward an enemy. Todays
more mild or PC or outright revisionism doesn't go over well.

Doesn't mean he's correct in what he says all time, or even
most of the time. Keep him in context and keep your Me 109
well away from his B-26, even in todays skies!


SMH


Thanks for understanding.. I don't get much around here. But at my age I don't
give a damn. I'll say what I like whenever I like.When I was a kid I
volunteered for the Army Air Corps. Me and a million other guys. I was called
up the day I was 18 and rushed ino training as the war raged. My greatest fear
was that the war would end before I got there and I would miss the entire
thing. I had nothing to worry about. It seemed as though 15 minutes after I was
called up I was 10,000 feet over Germany, which is exaclty where I wanted to
be. I didn't join the guard. I didn't join the reserves. I wanted to go to war
so I joined the Army Air Corp. Back then the reserve and the guard were
pathetic jokes and laughing stocks for all of us. As I have said before, if you
want to go to war, then go to war and don't hand us this reserve or National
Guard stuff. Tell a member of the 101st fighting for his life at Bastogne what
a great job the reserve is doing to defend our country sitting in the USA
nice and safe while he may not live to see the end of this day.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

"Stephen Harding" wrote in message
...
ArtKramr wrote:

"I am angry that so many of the sons of the powerful and well-placed managed
to
wangle slots in the Army Reserve and National Guard units." -- Colin Powell,
My
American Journey, 1995

You seem to be merging two different questions.

Powell stating the "wangling" of Reserve/Guard slots during
the Vietnam War, and whether GWB was hiding in the Guard
for this purpose or not.

From what I've heard, Powell was correct about the practice,
but I'm not at all certain that just because GWB was the son
of a "powerful and well-placed" person, that this was the
case for him.

Given his background and personal integrity, I'm not at all
certain Dad would have cooperated in such a move. Certainly
no evidence that I'm aware of that this was the case.

The Speaker of the Texas House of Representatives calls a highly placed official
in the Texas ANG and the application of a son of a Congressman possessing only
marginal aptitudes miraculously rises to the top of the lengthy waiting list.
It did not require that overt contact be made with the Speaker, either in
writing, in person or by phone. The Speaker only needed to know that there was
an application pending in order to make certain that the right result ensued.
It's not that it happened only to Bush....the same treatment was afforded to the
sons of Gov. Connelly and other notables.

But it did in fact happen, and it happened only because of who Bush was related
to and not because of anything else.

George Z.

SMH

In article ,
on 20 Feb 2004 16:24:32 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....


The guard is where you go when you don't want to go to war but want everyone to
think that you do. End of story.


Screw you art,
I joined the guard off active duty to be able to coninue to serve.




--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

Ok Tarver,

You call me moron for my opinions about military personnel having to
deploy, now I'm a dip**** for biting at the bait you threw at me.

First of all, resorting to namecalling is really immature.

Second of all, you obviously don't read what I have to say,,, and I
totally think everything you post is argumentative and arrogant.

I'll make you a deal, here is the "olive branch". I'll ignore
everything you say (no matter how stupid, moronic and lame it is) and
stay out of your business, and you do the same to me??? Deal?


On Sat, 21 Feb 2004 07:47:09 -0800, "Tarver Engineering"
wrote:


"fudog50" wrote in message
.. .
What would really help Tarver, is if you stay the hell out of subjects
you know absolutely zero about and quit spouting off.

I was in the ANG, dip****.

In article ,
on 21 Feb 2004 00:50:41 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....



He wasn't critisizing the guard for christsakes. He was critisizing those weak
bellied *******s who go there to hide. Y'know, the intellectually bankrupt you
are talking about.


So how about you stop characterizing anyone in the Guard that way ?


--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

"fudog50" wrote in message
news
Ok Tarver,

You call me moron for my opinions about military personnel having to
deploy, now I'm a dip**** for biting at the bait you threw at me.

I was calling Kevin Brooks a moron by reposting your message.

First of all, resorting to namecalling is really immature.

It is your post calling someone a moron.

If I wrote to you that you knew nothing about a thread about your Service, I
doubt you would have been so generous as I was.

Tank Fixer wrote:
In article ,
on 21 Feb 2004 00:50:41 GMT,
ArtKramr attempted to say .....



He wasn't critisizing the guard for christsakes. He was critisizing those
weak bellied *******s who go there to hide. Y'know, the intellectually
bankrupt you are talking about.


So how about you stop characterizing anyone in the Guard that way ?

I don't think anyone is characterizing members of the Guard in that way these
days. They obviously are called upon and do their things quite often these days
right alongside and with their Reserve and Regular brethren.

However, things were a bit different 35 years ago, as those of us who are old
enough to have been around then can attest. Even then, it obviously would not
have been fair to paint the guys who volunteered to go to places where a hot war
was being fought with the same brush as those who signed up and said they'd be
available for crowd control duty if there was a riot in the state capitol. Some
members of the Guard, but certainly not all, used their Guard membership as a
means of trying to keep from being drafted for service in those hot places. It
wasn't rare, and it did happen.

George Z.