Value of rudder for MS Flight Simulator

How important is the rudder to making Flight Simulator a realistic
experience. I want to use MS FS to assist me in taking flying
lessons. I wonder if the rudder will make the training more realistic
or does it really matter.

Thanks

Darrell Criswell wrote:
How important is the rudder to making Flight Simulator a realistic
experience. I want to use MS FS to assist me in taking flying
lessons. I wonder if the rudder will make the training more realistic
or does it really matter.

Thanks

Having some sort of rudder input is very important in FS2004, especially
for ground maneuvering and helicopter ops. You could probably get by not
having rudder for flying if you don't mind flying uncoordinated, and if
you don't plan on doing slips (for crosswind landings, etc).

I'm a pilot in "real life", and I get by alright just using a Logitech
joystick that has the twist in the stick for the rudder input.

Happy simming,

Randy

It's important in both a realistic and dramatic sense. Obviously,
every enhancement only highlights some other gap between the sim and
real life flight. I remember when I thought that all I needed was a
good joystick; then it became a joystick better than the CH Flite
Stick, then a throttle, then pedals.

OTOH, in their own right, pedals are indispensable. Besides the
reasons listed by Randy Wentzel, pedals are great because they involve
your feet. The problem with sims is that they only involve your hands,
unlike real airplanes in which your entire bod is sitting inside of.
Sims are already hamstrung by the fact that you're stuck looking at a
single 2d screen, unlike the all-enveloping world of real-life. Pedals
work against that because they get your feet off the ground. Whether
they assist in simming for real-life training is something I can't
answer. But they're definately a great part of flight simming for fun.

My set-up is a WinXP system using second-hand CH Gameport Pedals. Even
though the manual requires a 2-port gamecard, and warns that it won't
work on win XP, mine work okay on my single-port XP system.

"Darrell Criswell" wrote in message
...
How important is the rudder to making Flight Simulator a realistic
experience. I want to use MS FS to assist me in taking flying
lessons. I wonder if the rudder will make the training more realistic
or does it really matter.

Thanks

If I can respectfully offer you some professional advice on the use of
MSFS in student flight training......
I advise MS on realism and immersion for the simulator, and I'm a
professional CFI as well.
I've pasted in below part of a research paper I did on this subject for
a general aviation interest.

Dudley Henriques wrote;

I've done considerable consulting on this issue for various interests in
the flight instruction community and have also worked with MS on the
simulator and various software developers as a realism, immersion, and
flight dynamics advisor.
My opinion, after doing considerable research on the issue concerning
the possible use of MSFS by new student pilots entering initial flight
training was that the sim should be totally avoided by new students
during the initial
stages of flight training before solo.

It's during this period that the physical cues and control pressures in
the real aircraft as far as control pressure
vs response is concerned are in direct conflict with the simulator due
to software
and controller inconsistencies and differences between the real life
scenario and the simulator.
Much of the initial training in the real
airplane deals directly with a learning curve not only dealing with
control use and interrelationship, but required control PRESSURES,
singularly, and in combination (aileron/elevator/rudder) as this
combination
relates to the aircraft's movement though it's air environment
through a constantly changing dynamic in both speed and wind
velocity both real and relative.
It's an extremely complicated learning environment, especially before
solo, and dealing with it requires a
protracted period of exposure that can actually be prolonged and made
more difficult for the student if the student has to deal with any
outside artificial influence such as a desktop flight simulator.
I also found that once the basics are ingrained in the student and
the student reaches the PROCEDURES stage, and that includes instrument
work, the sim has some limited use as a training tool, IF used, and I
stress the word IF used, in conjunction with a competent CFI.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Flight Instructor/Aerobatics/Retired

I understand your concerns, and for someone who has never flow an
aircraft I think you may have some good points.

However, much of the time learning to fly is familarity with
procedures. And a sim can be better than the airplane for that.

I have already flown in Cessna 172, verieasy, Glassair, T-37 and T-38
(one flight). So I have some experience with different handling
characteristics of different airplanes.

I was intrigued with a news report of a Navy student who scored a
perfect score on his first flight in T-34, the instructors assumed he
had been a private pilot and was asked about his flying experience,
NONE, he was a MSFS addict.

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 00:31:05 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:


"Darrell Criswell" wrote in message
.. .
How important is the rudder to making Flight Simulator a realistic
experience. I want to use MS FS to assist me in taking flying
lessons. I wonder if the rudder will make the training more realistic
or does it really matter.

Thanks

If I can respectfully offer you some professional advice on the use of
MSFS in student flight training......
I advise MS on realism and immersion for the simulator, and I'm a
professional CFI as well.
I've pasted in below part of a research paper I did on this subject for
a general aviation interest.

Dudley Henriques wrote;

I've done considerable consulting on this issue for various interests in
the flight instruction community and have also worked with MS on the
simulator and various software developers as a realism, immersion, and
flight dynamics advisor.
My opinion, after doing considerable research on the issue concerning
the possible use of MSFS by new student pilots entering initial flight
training was that the sim should be totally avoided by new students
during the initial
stages of flight training before solo.

It's during this period that the physical cues and control pressures in
the real aircraft as far as control pressure
vs response is concerned are in direct conflict with the simulator due
to software
and controller inconsistencies and differences between the real life
scenario and the simulator.
Much of the initial training in the real
airplane deals directly with a learning curve not only dealing with
control use and interrelationship, but required control PRESSURES,
singularly, and in combination (aileron/elevator/rudder) as this
combination
relates to the aircraft's movement though it's air environment
through a constantly changing dynamic in both speed and wind
velocity both real and relative.
It's an extremely complicated learning environment, especially before
solo, and dealing with it requires a
protracted period of exposure that can actually be prolonged and made
more difficult for the student if the student has to deal with any
outside artificial influence such as a desktop flight simulator.
I also found that once the basics are ingrained in the student and
the student reaches the PROCEDURES stage, and that includes instrument
work, the sim has some limited use as a training tool, IF used, and I
stress the word IF used, in conjunction with a competent CFI.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Flight Instructor/Aerobatics/Retired

Although the Navy is experimenting with MSFS. as of this point in time,
the Navy is not using MSFS in any way as a part of their flight training
program AS THAT RELATES to the instructor/student training interface for
actual flight time required in the T34 before solo. Also, there is at
this time no documentation that indicates MSFS will be integrated into
the pre solo stage of Naval flight training for any other purpose other
than it's present use, which is for procedures familiarization,
checklist familiarization, instrumentation and instrument procedures,
systems familiarization, etc. Nuggets are allowed, and indeed encouraged
to use the sim for these purposes , and it's use has been found cost
effective for the navy in that area.
There is limited use for MSFS in the naval flight training program, and
they are indeed using experimenting with it as we speak, but at this
time there is absolutely NO indication that the Navy or anyone else is
actively using MSFS to supplement actual flight time in the before solo
stage of flight training.
In other words, the sim has limited use, but at this time is not being
used to supplement actual flight experience, and this is for the exact
reasons I have given concerning inability to reproduce control pressures
which is critical in initial flight training before solo.
You will find sim enthusiasts like yourself out there who will have the
individual story about how someone aced their first flight due to their
sim experience. Although this is possible, and in fact has been
reported, the evidence still indicates that the simulator at this time
can not duplicate the control pressures found in an individual aircraft
used for training in real world flight, and for that reason, has not
been approved, nor is it likely to be approved in the future , as a
means to take the place of actual flight hours required by the navy for
solo.
To allow you some leeway in your argument, it is true that someone who
has used MSFS extensively has a definite advantage going in to dual hour
one vs someone who has not been exposed to the simulator. It's a
definite advantage to know how things work in the airplane, but there is
still the issue of varied control pressures required in actual flight,
and it's this issue that we as instructors are concerned with during the
pre solo stage. It's fine to know which way to put the controls, but
it's the "how much pressure" and the "how long the pressure must be
applied" that we're concerned with in the pre solo stage.
The sim is a fine program, and it has uses in the training program, but
that use in pre solo is limited to familiarization and procedures as of
this point in time.
Perhaps a bit down the road......... :-)
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for private email; make necessary changes between ( )
dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net


"Darrell Criswell" wrote in message
...
I understand your concerns, and for someone who has never flow an
aircraft I think you may have some good points.

However, much of the time learning to fly is familarity with
procedures. And a sim can be better than the airplane for that.

I have already flown in Cessna 172, verieasy, Glassair, T-37 and T-38
(one flight). So I have some experience with different handling
characteristics of different airplanes.

I was intrigued with a news report of a Navy student who scored a
perfect score on his first flight in T-34, the instructors assumed he
had been a private pilot and was asked about his flying experience,
NONE, he was a MSFS addict.

On Mon, 03 Jan 2005 00:31:05 GMT, "Dudley Henriques"
wrote:


"Darrell Criswell" wrote in message
. ..
How important is the rudder to making Flight Simulator a realistic
experience. I want to use MS FS to assist me in taking flying
lessons. I wonder if the rudder will make the training more
realistic
or does it really matter.

Thanks

If I can respectfully offer you some professional advice on the use of
MSFS in student flight training......
I advise MS on realism and immersion for the simulator, and I'm a
professional CFI as well.
I've pasted in below part of a research paper I did on this subject
for
a general aviation interest.

Dudley Henriques wrote;

I've done considerable consulting on this issue for various interests
in
the flight instruction community and have also worked with MS on the
simulator and various software developers as a realism, immersion, and
flight dynamics advisor.
My opinion, after doing considerable research on the issue concerning
the possible use of MSFS by new student pilots entering initial flight
training was that the sim should be totally avoided by new students
during the initial
stages of flight training before solo.

It's during this period that the physical cues and control pressures
in
the real aircraft as far as control pressure
vs response is concerned are in direct conflict with the simulator
due
to software
and controller inconsistencies and differences between the real life
scenario and the simulator.
Much of the initial training in the real
airplane deals directly with a learning curve not only dealing with
control use and interrelationship, but required control PRESSURES,
singularly, and in combination (aileron/elevator/rudder) as this
combination
relates to the aircraft's movement though it's air environment
through a constantly changing dynamic in both speed and wind
velocity both real and relative.
It's an extremely complicated learning environment, especially before
solo, and dealing with it requires a
protracted period of exposure that can actually be prolonged and made
more difficult for the student if the student has to deal with any
outside artificial influence such as a desktop flight simulator.
I also found that once the basics are ingrained in the student and
the student reaches the PROCEDURES stage, and that includes instrument
work, the sim has some limited use as a training tool, IF used, and I
stress the word IF used, in conjunction with a competent CFI.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Flight Instructor/Aerobatics/Retired

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
link.net...

"Darrell Criswell" wrote in message
...
How important is the rudder to making Flight Simulator a realistic
experience. I want to use MS FS to assist me in taking flying
lessons. I wonder if the rudder will make the training more realistic
or does it really matter.

Thanks

If I can respectfully offer you some professional advice on the use of
MSFS in student flight training......
I advise MS on realism and immersion for the simulator, and I'm a
professional CFI as well.
I've pasted in below part of a research paper I did on this subject for
a general aviation interest.

Dudley Henriques wrote;

I've done considerable consulting on this issue for various interests in
the flight instruction community and have also worked with MS on the
simulator and various software developers as a realism, immersion, and
flight dynamics advisor.
My opinion, after doing considerable research on the issue concerning
the possible use of MSFS by new student pilots entering initial flight
training was that the sim should be totally avoided by new students
during the initial
stages of flight training before solo.

I'll agree with Dudley on this point. For a number of years I've been a fan
of MSFS (even had it when it was SubLogic). In February of 2004 I finished
up my private pilot training (at 63.6 hrs). I too thought MSFS would be a
handy tool in my training. I was wrong. VFR flying means looking out the
window, something difficult to do with the sim. Unless you have a very high
end computer you won't get fluid enough performance from the sim. While
good, MSFS is not immersive enough for training.
What is it good for? It is very good for learning the instruments, what
they do and their functions. It is very good for helping to understand VOR
and ADF use, and to some degree GPS use.
Personally, prior to solo I would stay away from it. After solo it can be
used to help out on your cross countries. You can actually plot the course
you want to fly. I found it great for "flying" to a new airport before
doing it in real life. Sure you can get a diagram of the airport from the
AOPA directory or a current AFD, but MSFS excels in it's details of most
airports.
It can be used as a tool but I'd recomend using it AFTER you solo.
--
Chris Ehlbeck, PP-ASEL
"It's a license to learn, have fun and buy really expensive hamburgers."

"Chris Ehlbeck" wrote in message
. ..
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
link.net...

"Darrell Criswell" wrote in message
...
How important is the rudder to making Flight Simulator a realistic
experience. I want to use MS FS to assist me in taking flying
lessons. I wonder if the rudder will make the training more
realistic
or does it really matter.

Thanks

If I can respectfully offer you some professional advice on the use
of
MSFS in student flight training......
I advise MS on realism and immersion for the simulator, and I'm a
professional CFI as well.
I've pasted in below part of a research paper I did on this subject
for
a general aviation interest.

Dudley Henriques wrote;

I've done considerable consulting on this issue for various interests
in
the flight instruction community and have also worked with MS on the
simulator and various software developers as a realism, immersion,
and
flight dynamics advisor.
My opinion, after doing considerable research on the issue concerning
the possible use of MSFS by new student pilots entering initial
flight
training was that the sim should be totally avoided by new students
during the initial
stages of flight training before solo.

I'll agree with Dudley on this point. For a number of years I've been
a fan
of MSFS (even had it when it was SubLogic). In February of 2004 I
finished
up my private pilot training (at 63.6 hrs). I too thought MSFS would
be a
handy tool in my training. I was wrong. VFR flying means looking out
the
window, something difficult to do with the sim. Unless you have a
very high
end computer you won't get fluid enough performance from the sim.
While
good, MSFS is not immersive enough for training.
What is it good for? It is very good for learning the instruments,
what
they do and their functions. It is very good for helping to
understand VOR
and ADF use, and to some degree GPS use.
Personally, prior to solo I would stay away from it. After solo it
can be
used to help out on your cross countries. You can actually plot the
course
you want to fly. I found it great for "flying" to a new airport
before
doing it in real life. Sure you can get a diagram of the airport from
the
AOPA directory or a current AFD, but MSFS excels in it's details of
most
airports.
It can be used as a tool but I'd recomend using it AFTER you solo.
--
Chris Ehlbeck, PP-ASEL
"It's a license to learn, have fun and buy really expensive
hamburgers."

Your comments duplicate nearly word for word our findings when we did
extensive research and consultation on this issue.
The main problem with the desktop simulators is that using current
hardware and software combinations, they are not able to duplicate
control pressures as they will exist in a specific aircraft, which of
course will vary in non boosted control surfaces as a function of
dynamic pressure in slugs on the surface (airspeed). This is considered
by most experts in the flight training field both in the military and
the civilian training communities to be detrimental during the pre solo
stage of instruction.
Various interests both in the military and civilian flight training
communities are experimenting with just how deeply the desktop
simulators can be used to augment training, and the FAA is experimenting
within the PCATD program, but sim enthusiasts pushing the simulator for
this purpose are well advised to be aware that ALL current AND projected
uses for the simulator at this time, involve procedures, systems, and
general aircraft familiarization scenarios ONLY! Flight training remains
a "hands on" situation at this point in time.
It can be noted also, although it's irrelevant to the desktop simulator
issue, that the airlines, using state of the art full motion simulators,
ARE using these simulators successfully in training programs involving
both checkout and currency requirements for type rated transition
training with very good results both in cost recovery and cutback
training time in the actual aircraft. This should in no way be
misconstrued by the desktop simulator advocates to be even remotely
related to the desktop simulator issue.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for private email; make necessary changes between ( )
dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net

To Chris & Dudley,

I too got my PP-ASEL recently after years of playing with MSFS. While I
agree that it does little or nothing to simulate the actual control inputs
required to fly an airplane, I feel it does nothing to hinder learning, even
pre-solo. For my part, it took only 10-15 minutes on my introductory flight
(a couple of "friendly" reminders from my CFI!) to break the habit of
staring at the instruments, look out the window, and start to "feel" the
aircraft and its controls. On the other hand, I was quite familiar with the
use of the various instruments, navigation, etc., which knowledge transfers
essentially unchanged from the sim to the aircraft. On balance, I think
it's a definite plus.

Hi Joe;

This issue will probably be argued forever by everybody involved, :-)))
as there is both a positive and a negative side to the argument as the
issue references the pros and cons of desktop simulator use before and
during flight training.
Aside from what I've already mentioned, what I found in my research on
this was that in the final opinion of the instructors I interviewed and
talked to at various times I've dealt officially with the issue as a
consultant, was that all things considered, the cons outweighed the
pros.
The good side was that as you and another poster have noted, there were
certain "advantages" going into a dual situation for those who had some
sim experience. This "advantage" dealt directly with an improved sense
of systems function, control usage, and instrumentation.
The down side according to the general consensus of the CFI's involved
with my research path was in two distinct areas; 1. Over familiarization
and reliance on control DIRECTION as opposed to control pressures, which
had to be addressed and corrected, and 2. Over concentration on
instruments as opposed to nose attitude in establishing flight attitudes
throughout the flight envelope. In other words, need for correction to
visual cues outside the cockpit.
Keeping in mind that there are always individual cases where these
issues are not as prevalent in one student as they are in another, as
obviously was your situation, what I found when viewing these issues
over a range of students and instructors both exposed and unexposed to a
desktop simulator before entering flight training and during the period
before solo, was that the negatives required extra flight time (an
average of + 2 hours extra dual for our sample test data base) when the
simulator was involved during the periods specified.
Bottom line is that if it works for you, it's a plus, but in my study of
this issue, the negatives indicated that the sim can be a problem for a
pre solo student.
It's not a critical thing, but it's not on the positive side at this
point, as far as I'm concerned anyway.
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/CFI Retired
for private email; make necessary changes between ( )
dhenriques(at)(delete all this)earthlink(dot)net




"Joe Johnson" wrote in message
m...
To Chris & Dudley,

I too got my PP-ASEL recently after years of playing with MSFS. While
I
agree that it does little or nothing to simulate the actual control
inputs
required to fly an airplane, I feel it does nothing to hinder
learning, even
pre-solo. For my part, it took only 10-15 minutes on my introductory
flight
(a couple of "friendly" reminders from my CFI!) to break the habit of
staring at the instruments, look out the window, and start to "feel"
the
aircraft and its controls. On the other hand, I was quite familiar
with the
use of the various instruments, navigation, etc., which knowledge
transfers
essentially unchanged from the sim to the aircraft. On balance, I
think
it's a definite plus.