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Speed of a vario



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 10th 20, 12:51 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default Speed of a vario

During takeoff you're adding kinetic energy to the total energy of the
glider.Â* I would expect the TE vario to show the increase. Remember, it
shows total energy; the up and down movements of the needle are telling
you how the total energy of the system is acting.

On 8/9/2020 2:00 PM, BG wrote:
On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 7:49:02 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Which vario has lowest latency? (Least delay to indicate thermal we pass)

Anyone has done side by side tests?

S

Sage Vario's are the fastest mechanical I know, however the seat of your pants is be far the most accurate if you fly well. Our typical TE systems have flaw that would prevent even the fast electrical or mechanical from giving good information. Have you ever glanced at your TE on take roll? Any horizontal wind gust shows as lift and sink, a typical take off roll shows 4-5 FPM lift!!. Using the seat of pants combined with a averager works for most of us.

BG


--
Dan, 5J
  #12  
Old August 10th 20, 12:53 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default Speed of a vario

Well that all sounds scientific, but why then are sounds synchronized
with vision?Â* According to the below explanation it would seem that I
should see your lips moving 10-15 seconds after I heard what you said.

On 8/9/2020 2:46 PM, Scott Williams wrote:
On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 9:49:02 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Which vario has lowest latency? (Least delay to indicate thermal we pass)

Anyone has done side by side tests?

S

This interesting summary of the physiological delay of the visual system could be considered another reason a hypothetical 'instant' vario would be less than useful. If you like technicalities, that is.

Scientists have revealed the human brain has a 15-second lag that helps stabilize incoming visual information, which we don’t notice bombarding us in the course of our everyday lives.
Eyes tend to receive an enormous information load from dusk till dawn, and as one opens his or her eyes in the morning, the brain starts its intensive work, processing incoming pictures from the surroundings, including imagery from TV screens and computer monitors.

A team of vision scientists at the University of California, Berkeley and Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) revealed this secret of the human brain: To save us from insanity induced by a constantly changing torrent of pictures, shapes and colors – both virtual and real world – the brain filters out information, failing in most cases to notice small changes in a 15-second period of time.

It actually means that what we do see is, in fact, a mixture of past and present. According to the research, published in the journal Nature Neuroscience, stability is attained at the expense of accuracy.

"What you are seeing at the present moment is not a fresh snapshot of the world but rather an average of what you've seen in the past 10 to 15 seconds," said study author Jason Fischer, Ph.D., a neuroscientist at MIT.


--
Dan, 5J
  #13  
Old August 10th 20, 09:01 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Chris Wedgwood[_2_]
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Default Speed of a vario

On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 10:46:25 PM UTC+2, Scott Williams wrote:
On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 9:49:02 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Which vario has lowest latency? (Least delay to indicate thermal we pass)

Anyone has done side by side tests?

S


This interesting summary of the physiological delay of the visual system could be considered another reason a hypothetical 'instant' vario would be less than useful. If you like technicalities, that is.

Scientists have revealed the human brain has a 15-second lag that helps stabilize incoming visual information, which we don’t notice bombarding us in the course of our everyday lives.
Eyes tend to receive an enormous information load from dusk till dawn, and as one opens his or her eyes in the morning, the brain starts its intensive work, processing incoming pictures from the surroundings, including imagery from TV screens and computer monitors.

A team of vision scientists at the University of California, Berkeley and Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) revealed this secret of the human brain: To save us from insanity induced by a constantly changing torrent of pictures, shapes and colors – both virtual and real world – the brain filters out information, failing in most cases to notice small changes in a 15-second period of time.

It actually means that what we do see is, in fact, a mixture of past and present. According to the research, published in the journal Nature Neuroscience, stability is attained at the expense of accuracy.

"What you are seeing at the present moment is not a fresh snapshot of the world but rather an average of what you've seen in the past 10 to 15 seconds," said study author Jason Fischer, Ph.D., a neuroscientist at MIT.


We're gonna need to see that paper. Got a link?
  #14  
Old August 10th 20, 03:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 46
Default Speed of a vario

Here's the link to the article (hit "download'). Though I commend Scott for slugging through the article and citing it (a welcome behavior for RAS), the authors do not conclude that the brain has a "15 second lag" to process the current visual field of an observer and has no connection with vario lag. It might have some loose relevance to a pilot's ability to pick out a moving, converging object from background when doing his/her scans. A 15 second lag would have meant more cavemen being eaten by dinosaurs.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ual_perception



Scientists have revealed the human brain has a 15-second lag that helps stabilize incoming visual information, which we don’t notice bombarding us in the course of our everyday lives.


It actually means that what we do see is, in fact, a mixture of past and present. According to the research, published in the journal Nature Neuroscience, stability is attained at the expense of accuracy.



We're gonna need to see that paper. Got a link?


  #15  
Old August 10th 20, 09:45 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 465
Default Speed of a vario

On Monday, August 10, 2020 at 10:45:16 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Here's the link to the article (hit "download'). Though I commend Scott for slugging through the article and citing it (a welcome behavior for RAS), the authors do not conclude that the brain has a "15 second lag" to process the current visual field of an observer and has no connection with vario lag. It might have some loose relevance to a pilot's ability to pick out a moving, converging object from background when doing his/her scans. A 15 second lag would have meant more cavemen being eaten by dinosaurs.

https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ual_perception



Scientists have revealed the human brain has a 15-second lag that helps stabilize incoming visual information, which we don’t notice bombarding us in the course of our everyday lives.


It actually means that what we do see is, in fact, a mixture of past and present. According to the research, published in the journal Nature Neuroscience, stability is attained at the expense of accuracy.



We're gonna need to see that paper. Got a link?


If we had a 15-second lag in responding to visual stimulii, none of us could survive more than a few landings. Or the drive to the airport, for that matter.
  #16  
Old August 10th 20, 10:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Scott Williams[_2_]
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Posts: 83
Default Speed of a vario

On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 9:49:02 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Which vario has lowest latency? (Least delay to indicate thermal we pass)

Anyone has done side by side tests?

S


I agree that a 15 second delay in perception is demonstrably false, but the delay effect does exist, only the degree is questionable.
try this reaction time test.

https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

Scott

  #17  
Old August 10th 20, 11:25 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Martin Gregorie[_6_]
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Default Speed of a vario

On Mon, 10 Aug 2020 14:17:56 -0700, Scott Williams wrote:

On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 9:49:02 PM UTC-5,
wrote:
Which vario has lowest latency? (Least delay to indicate thermal we
pass)

Anyone has done side by side tests?

S


I agree that a 15 second delay in perception is demonstrably false, but
the delay effect does exist, only the degree is questionable.
try this reaction time test.

https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

Seems to me that, while simple reaction time is a fair measure for, e.g.
responding to a FLARM alert, its a bit more complex when responding to a
vario's audio and optical output.

For starters, you should be looking out the window, and only look at the
vario when its tones change - if then: I tend to use its sound and butt
feel for centering a thermal rather than looking at the waggling needle
until I'm reasonably centered. IOW, response to a vario is a complex
reaction to the feel of the air and the vario tone rather than a simple
response to an optical signal.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

  #18  
Old August 10th 20, 11:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Posts: 4,601
Default Speed of a vario

That was fun!

370 ms
301 ms
294 ms
290 ms
308 ms

That puts me in the 16.8 percentile.Â* What's that mean, anyway?

On 8/10/2020 3:17 PM, Scott Williams wrote:
On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 9:49:02 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Which vario has lowest latency? (Least delay to indicate thermal we pass)

Anyone has done side by side tests?

S

I agree that a 15 second delay in perception is demonstrably false, but the delay effect does exist, only the degree is questionable.
try this reaction time test.

https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime

Scott


--
Dan, 5J
  #19  
Old August 11th 20, 02:57 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
SoaringXCellence
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Posts: 385
Default Speed of a vario

Dan,

It means you're very slow, only faster than 16% of the test subjects. I got an average of 210, that's the 76 percentile.

MB
  #20  
Old August 11th 20, 03:03 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Papa3[_2_]
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Posts: 753
Default Speed of a vario

On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 7:07:42 AM UTC-4, Martin Gregorie wrote:
On Sat, 08 Aug 2020 23:58:05 -0700, Tango Whisky wrote:

Thermals are turbulent, and a 1 sec time constant means that the vario
would be all over the place and completely useless. Use your butt
instead.

Best fast electronic I've used is the (now quite ancient) Borgelt B.40.
Somehow it manages to be both fast and adequately damped: the needle
never jitters about, but I agree with Tango Whisky - never ignore what
your butt is telling you.


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org


I agree. There's something about the damping that seems to just work across multiple gliders, some with questionable pneumatic systems. If someone said I could have one and only one vario, it would be the B40 with the 9 volt battery strapped to the back.

I always found it funny that my sage was almost "too good". The reality, at least for those of us who fly in turbulent environments like mountains and ridges is that you need to do a lot of "soft averaging" to achieve decent climbs, and I have found with multiple varios from different manufacturers (Cambridge, Clearnav, Butterfly, LX) that I always end up configuring them for something like a 2 second or slightly more response time. Anything else makes it hard for me to integrate the information to form a picture. In other words, seat of the pants says we just flew into lift; old-fashioned pneumatic Winter Vario and the latest electronic gadget start to confirm a second or two later; trend seems to be continuing; now did one side feel better than the other; start the turn and keep the bank moderate at long as the trend is getting better...

With faster response, I usually found myself making a "panic bank" too early and having to take more turns to get centered.

But that's just how my brain is wired.

P3
 




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