launching V-1s from an aircraft carrier

"Keith Willshaw" wrote

If the commonwealth has capitulated why arent you launching attacks
from Canada ?

I'm assuming the commonwealth is neutral, like Vichy France..

Assuming they can do 25 to 30 knots for 10 hours or so and the V-1s can
fly
about 250 miles, they could presumably approach during daylight, launch
at
dusk, and retreat, thus ensuring that they're out of range of effective
land-based air throughout.

Hardly. Virtually any land based twin or 4 engined bombers could
reach them with escort from P-38's. The catalina's would pick them
up a long way out.

The operative word is "effective".

All they have to worry about is submarines, so I
figure one carries a normal air group and the other the V-1s. Ideally,
if
a
V-1 could be fired without reconfiguring the whole flight deck, they
both
would. I'd imagine you could flat-pack a V-1 quite small.


Why dont they have to wonder about the US Atlantic fleet ?

How many CVs did it consist of? Not much else is going to catch them.

In article m,
"The Blue Max" writes:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote

If the commonwealth has capitulated why arent you launching attacks
from Canada ?

I'm assuming the commonwealth is neutral, like Vichy France..

Assuming they can do 25 to 30 knots for 10 hours or so and the V-1s can
fly
about 250 miles, they could presumably approach during daylight, launch
at
dusk, and retreat, thus ensuring that they're out of range of effective
land-based air throughout.

Hardly. Virtually any land based twin or 4 engined bombers could
reach them with escort from P-38's. The catalina's would pick them
up a long way out.

The operative word is "effective".

All they have to worry about is submarines, so I
figure one carries a normal air group and the other the V-1s. Ideally,
if
a
V-1 could be fired without reconfiguring the whole flight deck, they
both
would. I'd imagine you could flat-pack a V-1 quite small.


Why dont they have to wonder about the US Atlantic fleet ?

How many CVs did it consist of? Not much else is going to catch them.

In late '43-'44, a bucketload, if you're willing to count CVEs.
There were quite a few ASW Hunter-killer groups that were all over teh
Atlantic. Not 30 kt ships, but perfectly capable of carrying and
launching strike aircraft. A typical CVE airgroup was a Squadron of
FM-2s, and a Squadron of TBMs, about 35 aircraft in all. They did
carry weapons for Anti-ship as well as Anti-sub combat, and had their
own Destroer Flotilla attached.
V-1s, BTW, didn't make their first operational shots until mid '44.

--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

"William Hughes" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:23:44 GMT, in rec.aviation.military "The Blue Max"
wrote:
"Keith Willshaw" wrote


Why dont they have to wonder about the US Atlantic fleet ?

How many CVs did it consist of? Not much else is going to catch them.

During WWII, Atlantic Fleet only had one full time fleet carrier (sort
of) -
CV-4 RANGER. CV-5 YORKTOWN moved to the Pacific in December '41. CV-7 WASP
was
there until early 1942, when she transferred to the Pacific. The rest of
the
U.S. carrier presence in the Atlantic consisted primarily of the SANGAMON
and
BOGUE class escort carriers, with a few CASABLANCA and COMMENCEMENT BAY
class
ships.

That's what I figured. The USN didn't acquire really huge numbers of CVs
till late 43 / early 44 IIRC, which is why the appearance of two in the
Atlantic would have been such a pain.

In fact Germany contemplated 9 CVx at various times, but if they'd actually
built them I suspect the USN would have noticed and done something about
it...


--
Et qui rit des cures d'Oc?
De Meuse raines, houp! de cloques.
De quelles loques ce turqe coin.
Et ne d'anes ni rennes,
Ecuries des cures d'Oc.

On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 20:22:43 -0400, in rec.aviation.military
(Peter Stickney) wrote:

In late '43-'44, a bucketload, if you're willing to count CVEs.
There were quite a few ASW Hunter-killer groups that were all over teh
Atlantic. Not 30 kt ships, but perfectly capable of carrying and

SANGAMON - 18 knots
BOGUE - 18 knots
CASABLANCA - 19 knots
COMMENCEMENT BAY - 19 knots

launching strike aircraft. A typical CVE airgroup was a Squadron of
FM-2s, and a Squadron of TBMs, about 35 aircraft in all. They did

SANGAMON - 30 aircraft
BOGUE - 28 aircraft
CASABLANCA - 28 aircraft
COMMENCEMENT BAY - 33 aircraft

At the time, naval aircraft squadrons usually numbered 18 aircraft. CVE air
groups were split approximately 4:6 (fighters:torpedo planes/bombers), resulting
in a composite squadron (VC) of 12 fighters and 18 torpedo planes/bombers.

carry weapons for Anti-ship as well as Anti-sub combat, and had their
own Destroer Flotilla attached.

Three to six assorted destroyers and destroyer escorts, usually. When CVE-60 USS
Guadalcanal captured U-505, her escort consisted of DE-133 USS Pillsbury, DE-134
USS Pope, DE-135 USS Flaherty, DE-149 USS Chatelain and DE-665 USS Jenks. Her
air group was Composite Squadron Eight (VC-8).

"The Blue Max" wrote in message
s.com...

"Keith Willshaw" wrote

If the commonwealth has capitulated why arent you launching attacks
from Canada ?

I'm assuming the commonwealth is neutral, like Vichy France..

Assuming they can do 25 to 30 knots for 10 hours or so and the V-1s
can
fly
about 250 miles, they could presumably approach during daylight,
launch
at
dusk, and retreat, thus ensuring that they're out of range of
effective
land-based air throughout.

Hardly. Virtually any land based twin or 4 engined bombers could
reach them with escort from P-38's. The catalina's would pick them
up a long way out.

The operative word is "effective".


B-25's were very effective in the Solomons

All they have to worry about is submarines, so I
figure one carries a normal air group and the other the V-1s. Ideally,
if
a
V-1 could be fired without reconfiguring the whole flight deck, they
both
would. I'd imagine you could flat-pack a V-1 quite small.


Why dont they have to wonder about the US Atlantic fleet ?

How many CVs did it consist of? Not much else is going to catch them.


The Ranger, Yorktown and Wasp as of Dec 7 1941

Keith

"The Blue Max" wrote in message
s.com...

"William Hughes" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 26 Jul 2003 23:23:44 GMT, in rec.aviation.military "The Blue
Max"
wrote:
"Keith Willshaw" wrote


Why dont they have to wonder about the US Atlantic fleet ?

How many CVs did it consist of? Not much else is going to catch them.

During WWII, Atlantic Fleet only had one full time fleet carrier (sort
of) -
CV-4 RANGER. CV-5 YORKTOWN moved to the Pacific in December '41. CV-7
WASP
was
there until early 1942, when she transferred to the Pacific. The rest of
the
U.S. carrier presence in the Atlantic consisted primarily of the
SANGAMON
and
BOGUE class escort carriers, with a few CASABLANCA and COMMENCEMENT BAY
class
ships.

That's what I figured. The USN didn't acquire really huge numbers of CVs
till late 43 / early 44 IIRC, which is why the appearance of two in the
Atlantic would have been such a pain.


You are making several false assumptions here, the biggest of these
is that the USN would have the same dispositions in your
fantasy world as in real life. It emphatically would not, as its
history show it reacts to the threats posed. In 1941 because
the Kriegsmarine was largely contained it was able to strip
many units from the Atlantic fleet to bolster the Pacific, indeed
even the Brtish carrier Victorious was temporarily attached to the
Pacific carrier force in 1942.

Keith


In fact Germany contemplated 9 CVx at various times, but if they'd
actually
built them I suspect the USN would have noticed and done something about
it...


--
Et qui rit des cures d'Oc?
De Meuse raines, houp! de cloques.
De quelles loques ce turqe coin.
Et ne d'anes ni rennes,
Ecuries des cures d'Oc.

"Peter Stickney" wrote

In late '43-'44, a bucketload, if you're willing to count CVEs.
There were quite a few ASW Hunter-killer groups that were all over teh
Atlantic.

Presumably in view of the U-boat campaign, which I have here assumed isn't
happening.

"The Blue Max" wrote in message
s.com...

"Keith Willshaw" wrote

The operative word is "effective".


B-25's were very effective in the Solomons

Not at 400 miles against CVs, they weren't.


400 miles is beyond the range of a V-1, at 200 miles they'd
be very effective. Consider the Battle of the Bismarck Sea of early March
1943.

USAAF B-17's and B-25s along with Australian Beauforts and Beaufighters took
part in coordinated and repeated attacks on a Japanese convoy headed from
Rabaul to reinforce their forces based at Lae, with P-38s and P-40s flying
top cover.

Out of the original convoy of eight destroyers and eight cargo vessels that
had
departed Rabaul, all the transports and four of the destroyers were sunk or
beached.

How many CVs did it consist of? Not much else is going to catch them.


The Ranger, Yorktown and Wasp as of Dec 7 1941

2 years earlier than I'm thinking.


They didnt evaporate in the meantime and a **** load of CVE's
were built in the meantime.

I'm not suggesting this woudl have happened. I'm just interested in what
it
would have taken to ensure any such raid would fail. My guess is a minimum
of 6 CVs plus a lot of land-based air, which would be a useful deduction
from the PTO from the IJN's perspective.

V-1s make more sense than a conventional raid because your CVs don't have
to
loiter waiting for the strike force to return. They just launch and
retreat.
Any hits on New York get you lots of victory points.



And almost certainly lose both carriers. The Doolittle raid was possible
because the Japanese didnt have effective Ocean surveillance aircraft
equipped with radar. The USA did have such assets in 1943, moreover
they had bases in Iceland and Greenland.

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote

400 miles is beyond the range of a V-1,

The V-1's range was presumably somewhat fungible depending on how far from
the target it started.

http://www.fiddlersgreen.net/aircraf...fo/vi_info.htm

suggests that the empty weight was 815kg, the warhead was 850kg, and the
total laden weight was 2180kg. I am assuming that the 515kg difference
between the empty and warhead-inclusive weights was the fuel; and that the
standard as-used flying bomb starts out fully-fuelled and flies till empty.
Keeping things nice and simple, that 515kg of fuel was enough to fly an
average weight of 1923 kg (mean of launch and 'landing' weights) about 200
miles, historically.

If the warhead can be halved in weight and the saving applied to increase
the fuel load, this roughly doubles the weapon's range (unless the fuel is a
lot bulkier than the HE warhead). I make this assumption because if 515kg of
fuel would fly 1923kg 200 miles, 940kg of fuel should fly 1710kgs 400 miles
because you have ~83% more fuel and ~11% less weight.

50 or so 425kg warheads arriving in Manhattan are still going to royally
**** off US public opinion.

Assuming the 2 CVs can do 25 knots in north Atlantic weather for 10 to 12
hours without mishap, and that the night lasts that long, then at dusk (1800
say) they'd be 500 miles from NY. They advance at flank speed until 2200, at
which point they're in range. They launch the V-1s pronto and reverse course
just as the first ones are landing. The search planes start looking for them
ASAP but they have no realistic chance of picking them up until dawn. By
then the retreating CVs are 500 miles away again.

Any outbound strike from the US mainland is looking at a tail chase. Even if
the PBY (or whatever) spots them at daybreak, doesn't get shot down, and
vectors (eg) B25s directly onto them, the bombers are only going to overhaul
them at a net 200 knots. This means a 2.5 hour pursuit, i.e. the target will
be probably 600 miles away even if everything goes exactly right for the
pursuers. Even then, I'd be really surprised if 2 CVs would be much troubled
by whatever a B-25 could deliver at 600 miles; or even 400 miles, assuming
standard-range V-1s.

at 200 miles they'd
be very effective. Consider the Battle of the Bismarck Sea of early March
1943.

I'm aware of the Bismarck Sea. I see little in common between that action,
against a 9-knot convoy with no organic air cover in the weather,
visibility, and sea state conditions of the PTO, with the above.

They didnt evaporate in the meantime and a **** load of CVE's
were built in the meantime.

In the original timeline, yes. I'm assuming that Germany reaches terms with
Britain in 1940. The latter withdraws from Iceland as there's no U-boat
campaign, and German-occupied Denmark would probably insist. Germany then
defeats Russia and has no need to suspend work on her 2 CVs, which have
until 1943 or 1944 to work up in the Baltic. The V-1 programme proceeds
unhindered by Allied bombing and is ready by late 1943.

At this point the IJN is in need of a diversion to buy time. Germany
provides this via the above. No U-boat campaign and thus no need to deploy
or even build CVEs to the Atlantic. Obviosuly Germany would be stupid to
attack the USA, but doing it per the above is arguably less stupid than what
she actually did, i.e. declare war while still fighting the Commonwealth and
USSR.


--
Et qui rit des cures d'Oc?
De Meuse raines, houp! de cloques.
De quelles loques ce turqe coin.
Et ne d'anes ni rennes,
Ecuries des cures d'Oc.

Allied bombings had little to do with delays in getting V-1s
operational, so presuming an early debut of them is unrealistic. (same
thing with jets, buggy and immature technology combined with limits in
the industrial base kept them delayed) Then, the things were terribly
inaccurate. At their extreme range, hitting greater New York, even less
Manhattan, would have been iffy. Any attack would have been a dramatic
propaganda blow, but serve no useful military purpose. And finally, you
would not need a carrier to launch them. Any moderate size ship could be
fitted with simple fold out launch rails, they would only need to extend
about 15 ft away from the hull and only need to handle a couple of tons,
a simple installation. But by '43/'44, the Atlantic was an Allied lake
and any German surface types wouldn't have a chance. I love "what if"
scenarios, but let's keep a little realism to it.