What is the status on cheaper aircraft for the Sports pilot?

"Dude" wrote in message
...
I don't know where you came up with any of that but it makes
absolutely
no
sense.

I agree.
If you do your homework, and buy a well maintained plane, there is no
reason


There is plenty of reason. Some folks get lucky, and never have a 5k, 10k
or 20k annual. You can scream all you want about doing diligence, but
these
things happen. Many owners I know have this kind of recurrence on a
regular
basis. They will tell you that their annuals cost under 2k, they just
don't
average in the one in three years when its double or triple that, or
worse.

There is nothing about LSA that will change any of that. My annual costs
for the 6 years I have owned my plane have not exceeded $200.

The parts can be really expensive and or hard to find. If you actually
could so accurately screen used aircraft, I suggest you become a broker.
Certainly, you could take over the business with the 3 year warranty you
would be able to offer.

No guarantee this will change. If an LSA builder goes belly up where you
gonna get parts?

How many times can we say this and still a certain portion of the
audience
will never listen. If you can't afford the acquisition costs you
probably
can't afford the ownership costs either.

There is nothing magical about Light-Sport aircraft that will make them
dramatically cheaper to own and operate than existing comparable GA
aircraft
like a C-150, cub, champ, etc.

No, its not magical, its simple. The parts are not the same. Where
Cessna
uses stainless, the sport guys can use aluminum. A new 150 built today
would
cost over 100k. This is a reflection of the labor, parts, R&D, etc. The
cost to maintian the planes is usually a reflection of the cost to
manufacture them.

Other than exhaust where is their stainless in a 150? There will be no
significant difference between parts/materials in a LSA and existing two
place aircraft. Take a look at the "new" T-craft if you want an example.

They will be newer so you will presumably
need fewer parts and they will be cheaper, but labor won't be any
cheaper.
My neighborhood auto mechanic charges pretty much the same as my A&P and
he
didn't have to get any special training either.

Their will likely be less labor, as the planes are simpler and with fewer
parts. Also, what kind of logs will sport planes have? My A+P charges me
for every minute he takes to ensure his repairs and entries are legal.

And that's bad? What do you think resale will be on LSA that do not
receive the level of maintenance current certified aircraft receive? Resale
is a significant factor when considering cost of ownership.


Insurance, and storage costs
will be the same, while fuel may be somewhat cheaper since you'll get to
use
Mogas, but that's not such a huge difference at 4-5 gallons per hour.


Insurance will be less. If the plane costs less new, then the insurance
is
bound to be cheaper. Folding wings can reduce storage, with or without
bringing it home with you.

Insurance rates for expermentals say you are off base. Insurance companies
have a proven affinity to avoid new and not professionally maintained.
Purchase price is only one factor that determines insurance costs and it is
not always a major factor.

Now if you get your Repairman and Inspector's certificates and do your
own
labor, you will definitely save some real money. This is a lot more
attainable now since the requirements are much lower than for an A&P/IA,
but
running a shop won't be any cheaper so professionals will still charge
pretty much the same.

But supposedly, more owners will do more of their own work.


But in the end I think the main significant difference is the
elimination
of
certification cost.

No small thing.

AFAIK LSA still need to be certified unless homebuilt? No?

Look at the boating world- that is completely
unregulated and yet in the end mechanics, marinas, insurance costs etc.
are
all in the same ballpark as planes. People have money to spend, they're
just
not chosing to spend it on airplanes. Part of that is the difficulty of
earning a pilot's license and part of it is that you can do a lot more
recreationally with a $300k boat than a $300k plane. Personally I'll
take
both


Sport pilot will greatly reduce the hassles of getting the license. Boats
will remain more popular. Even if we doubled the pilot population, they
wouldn't notice any loss.

My certified airplane costs less to keep in the air than it did to keep the
boat in the water.

"N9NWO" wrote in message ...
A lot of us can not afford the $100K+ aircraft. Even Taylor is a bit too
expensive at $54K. When can we expect to see something in the $15 to 25K
range?

I will note that I am seeing a lot of used aircraft in that range. I gather
that the market is a bit depressed still.

You aren't likely to see anyone bother to produce anything flyable at
that price range. When I talked to the Sport pilot guys at OSH, even
the little weight-shift planes were more expensive than an older
Cessna 150. There is a guy on the field here that rents out an
ultralight (he was a "certified" ultra light instructor, although he
and his plane recently crashed, killing himself and his student). He
was charging $70/hr for this ultra light.

-Robert

There is plenty of reason. Some folks get lucky, and never have a 5k,
10k
or 20k annual. You can scream all you want about doing diligence, but
these
things happen. Many owners I know have this kind of recurrence on a
regular
basis. They will tell you that their annuals cost under 2k, they just
don't
average in the one in three years when its double or triple that, or
worse.

There is nothing about LSA that will change any of that. My annual costs
for the 6 years I have owned my plane have not exceeded $200.


Thou art truly blessed, give thanks to the Lord, and pray for this to
continue. You must be doing much of the labor yourself and having this
signed off?


The parts can be really expensive and or hard to find. If you actually
could so accurately screen used aircraft, I suggest you become a broker.
Certainly, you could take over the business with the 3 year warranty you
would be able to offer.

No guarantee this will change. If an LSA builder goes belly up where you
gonna get parts?


No guarantee that your plane won't need 5k next year, become orphaned in a
similar manner, or blow up due to unknown causes. This is a weak argument
at best, and an outright attack on progress by any means.



How many times can we say this and still a certain portion of the
audience
will never listen. If you can't afford the acquisition costs you
probably
can't afford the ownership costs either.

There is nothing magical about Light-Sport aircraft that will make them
dramatically cheaper to own and operate than existing comparable GA
aircraft
like a C-150, cub, champ, etc.

No, its not magical, its simple. The parts are not the same. Where
Cessna
uses stainless, the sport guys can use aluminum. A new 150 built today
would
cost over 100k. This is a reflection of the labor, parts, R&D, etc. The
cost to maintian the planes is usually a reflection of the cost to
manufacture them.

Other than exhaust where is their stainless in a 150? There will be no
significant difference between parts/materials in a LSA and existing two
place aircraft. Take a look at the "new" T-craft if you want an example.


Sorry, stainless was just one example among thousands on your plane (my bad
for not being clearer) Every nut, bolt, washer, wire, etc. has to be
certified on your plane, or even on a Tcraft unless they change that. OTOH,
Fat ultralights and new designs do not appear to meet this criteria. This
is why a wise certified manufacturer will NEVER build an uncertified sport
plane. Think of the inevitable lawsuit. "Mr. Cessna, could you please
explain why the part that caused this failure was allowed on this design
when you could have used a better tested part that you have on other
models?"

They will be newer so you will presumably
need fewer parts and they will be cheaper, but labor won't be any
cheaper.
My neighborhood auto mechanic charges pretty much the same as my A&P
and
he
didn't have to get any special training either.

Their will likely be less labor, as the planes are simpler and with fewer
parts. Also, what kind of logs will sport planes have? My A+P charges me
for every minute he takes to ensure his repairs and entries are legal.

And that's bad? What do you think resale will be on LSA that do not
receive the level of maintenance current certified aircraft receive?
Resale
is a significant factor when considering cost of ownership.


The masses just do not get this at all, they just don't understand it.
Besides, less value is less insurance cost which is less overall cost. If
you are only putting $200 per year in maintenance on your plane, I expect
the insurance bill looks pretty big by comparison.


Insurance, and storage costs
will be the same, while fuel may be somewhat cheaper since you'll get
to
use
Mogas, but that's not such a huge difference at 4-5 gallons per hour.


Insurance will be less. If the plane costs less new, then the insurance
is
bound to be cheaper. Folding wings can reduce storage, with or without
bringing it home with you.

Insurance rates for expermentals say you are off base. Insurance
companies
have a proven affinity to avoid new and not professionally maintained.
Purchase price is only one factor that determines insurance costs and it
is
not always a major factor.


Your experience is contrary to mine in this regard. Unless you do not mean
original purchase price. If you get a Citation for a quarter, and want to
ensure it for that, I think you find the insurance is much more than it is
for a similar price Cirrus.


Now if you get your Repairman and Inspector's certificates and do your
own
labor, you will definitely save some real money. This is a lot more
attainable now since the requirements are much lower than for an
A&P/IA,
but
running a shop won't be any cheaper so professionals will still charge
pretty much the same.

But supposedly, more owners will do more of their own work.


But in the end I think the main significant difference is the
elimination
of
certification cost.

No small thing.

AFAIK LSA still need to be certified unless homebuilt? No?


No. Incorrect, not true. The standards are much lower, and IIRC the
manufacturer simply signs off on much of it themselves. I am no expert, but
this is how it was explained to me.

Look at the boating world- that is completely
unregulated and yet in the end mechanics, marinas, insurance costs etc.
are
all in the same ballpark as planes. People have money to spend, they're
just
not chosing to spend it on airplanes. Part of that is the difficulty of
earning a pilot's license and part of it is that you can do a lot more
recreationally with a $300k boat than a $300k plane. Personally I'll
take
both


Sport pilot will greatly reduce the hassles of getting the license.
Boats
will remain more popular. Even if we doubled the pilot population, they
wouldn't notice any loss.

My certified airplane costs less to keep in the air than it did to keep
the
boat in the water.


Again, you are certainly not the regular owner that I speak with. You are
getting by on a tiny budget. Please share your secrets.