How high does your club tow?

On Tuesday, August 28, 2018 at 9:22:36 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 8/27/2018 8:15 PM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
"...but although they plan to put some small chalets and a bunkhouse
on the field they are for unknown reasons against permanent residents."

Maybe because sooner or later the permanent residents, who aren't
necessarily glider pilots, will start to complain about the noise. (From
personal experience)

You're the second person to say that. I don't think it stacks up, as there is no practical difference in noise levels for a house 20m inside the airfield boundary vs a house 20m outside the boundary, and the club is more likely to have an ongoing relationship with the one inside the boundary -- and indeed may well have some form of veto on residents written into the lease.

The area with the hangar/clubhouse/bunkhouse/housing is on higher ground 1 km away from the main runway (up the seldom-used "crosswind" runway), and likely to remain that way due to roughly once a year flooding risk from the river adjacent and parallel to the main 2 km long grass runway.

Also, it's a winching site with no resident towplane.

Winching should make all the difference given a good muffler (silencer)
on the winch.

The history with home owners I'm familiar with was that the club was
originally invited to the property when there were only a couple of
homes on the field.Â* It was open country so there were only farms in the
vicinity.Â* With growth, more and more homes were built on the air park,
mostly power pilots, who were unfamiliar with glider operations.Â* They
expected very few operations and were shocked at the number of take offs
on a club flying day.Â* The club had equal voting rights with the other
property owners and fought off attempts at shutting the club down.

I understand they have worked out the differences between the two groups
and things are now much friendlier.Â* But to your doubts based upon
houses inside and outside the fence:Â* It wasn't about the noise of a
single launch, it was the continuous noise of air tows on the weekends,
the numerous club aircraft and personnel on the air field, and the fact
that the homeowners outnumbered the club and just didn't want the club
to be there spoiling their tranquility.

Oh, and leases can be not renewed unless there's some perpetual language
written in.Â* The club I've described was a property owner on the air
park and attempts made by the other property owners were, IIRC, not to
throw us out, but to severely limit our operations and use of the common
areas.Â* Had they succeeded, we would have had no other choice than to
take legal action (uncertain and expensive) or find another location.

On 8/28/2018 5:11 PM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Tuesday, August 28, 2018 at 9:22:36 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 8/27/2018 8:15 PM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
"...but although they plan to put some small chalets and a bunkhouse
on the field they are for unknown reasons against permanent residents."
Maybe because sooner or later the permanent residents, who aren't
necessarily glider pilots, will start to complain about the noise. (From
personal experience)
You're the second person to say that. I don't think it stacks up, as there is no practical difference in noise levels for a house 20m inside the airfield boundary vs a house 20m outside the boundary, and the club is more likely to have an ongoing relationship with the one inside the boundary -- and indeed may well have some form of veto on residents written into the lease.

The area with the hangar/clubhouse/bunkhouse/housing is on higher ground 1 km away from the main runway (up the seldom-used "crosswind" runway), and likely to remain that way due to roughly once a year flooding risk from the river adjacent and parallel to the main 2 km long grass runway.

Also, it's a winching site with no resident towplane.

--
Dan, 5J

Most of the clubs I have flown at charge a per minute rate for tows, measured via stopwatch, with a 260hp Pawnee,getting better tha 6kt climbs.
I regularly manage 4 minute tows, releasing in the first good thermal above 1400ft agl, and very rarely need a relight.
Full ballast, first good bump above 1800.

On Wednesday, August 29, 2018 at 9:44:09 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Winching should make all the difference given a good muffler (silencer)
on the winch.

The history with home owners I'm familiar with was that the club was
originally invited to the property when there were only a couple of
homes on the field.Â* It was open country so there were only farms in the
vicinity.Â* With growth, more and more homes were built on the air park,
mostly power pilots, who were unfamiliar with glider operations.Â* They
expected very few operations and were shocked at the number of take offs
on a club flying day.Â* The club had equal voting rights with the other
property owners and fought off attempts at shutting the club down.

I understand they have worked out the differences between the two groups
and things are now much friendlier.Â* But to your doubts based upon
houses inside and outside the fence:Â* It wasn't about the noise of a
single launch, it was the continuous noise of air tows on the weekends,
the numerous club aircraft and personnel on the air field, and the fact
that the homeowners outnumbered the club and just didn't want the club
to be there spoiling their tranquility.

Oh, and leases can be not renewed unless there's some perpetual language
written in.Â* The club I've described was a property owner on the air
park and attempts made by the other property owners were, IIRC, not to
throw us out, but to severely limit our operations and use of the common
areas.Â* Had they succeeded, we would have had no other choice than to
take legal action (uncertain and expensive) or find another location.

On 8/28/2018 5:11 PM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Tuesday, August 28, 2018 at 9:22:36 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 8/27/2018 8:15 PM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
"...but although they plan to put some small chalets and a bunkhouse
on the field they are for unknown reasons against permanent residents.."
Maybe because sooner or later the permanent residents, who aren't
necessarily glider pilots, will start to complain about the noise. (From
personal experience)
You're the second person to say that. I don't think it stacks up, as there is no practical difference in noise levels for a house 20m inside the airfield boundary vs a house 20m outside the boundary, and the club is more likely to have an ongoing relationship with the one inside the boundary -- and indeed may well have some form of veto on residents written into the lease.

The area with the hangar/clubhouse/bunkhouse/housing is on higher ground 1 km away from the main runway (up the seldom-used "crosswind" runway), and likely to remain that way due to roughly once a year flooding risk from the river adjacent and parallel to the main 2 km long grass runway.

Also, it's a winching site with no resident towplane.

--
Dan, 5J

More specifically, before it became an air park, the homesite acreages were offered and advertised (in Soaring) to glider pilots for 20 years before it was offered to the aviation community. At that point development really took off. In my observation, since becoming a 501(c)(3), the chapter has really turned around. Many improvements to their pilot center including a conference room (partially funded by the airport owners association and used for their meetings), money in the bank, re-engined tow plane, active stable of instructors, and looking to grow. At least one new home builder joined the chapter and completed his rating. Much different from 4-6 years ago and very encouraging. BTW, some of the instructors are using their well equipped Mach 0.1 simulator with students and $8/hour is charged for use.

Frank Whiteley

On Wednesday, August 29, 2018 at 7:43:53 PM UTC-6, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Wednesday, August 29, 2018 at 9:44:09 AM UTC-6, Dan Marotta wrote:
Winching should make all the difference given a good muffler (silencer)
on the winch.

The history with home owners I'm familiar with was that the club was
originally invited to the property when there were only a couple of
homes on the field.Â* It was open country so there were only farms in the
vicinity.Â* With growth, more and more homes were built on the air park,
mostly power pilots, who were unfamiliar with glider operations.Â* They
expected very few operations and were shocked at the number of take offs
on a club flying day.Â* The club had equal voting rights with the other
property owners and fought off attempts at shutting the club down.

I understand they have worked out the differences between the two groups
and things are now much friendlier.Â* But to your doubts based upon
houses inside and outside the fence:Â* It wasn't about the noise of a
single launch, it was the continuous noise of air tows on the weekends,
the numerous club aircraft and personnel on the air field, and the fact
that the homeowners outnumbered the club and just didn't want the club
to be there spoiling their tranquility.

Oh, and leases can be not renewed unless there's some perpetual language
written in.Â* The club I've described was a property owner on the air
park and attempts made by the other property owners were, IIRC, not to
throw us out, but to severely limit our operations and use of the common
areas.Â* Had they succeeded, we would have had no other choice than to
take legal action (uncertain and expensive) or find another location.

On 8/28/2018 5:11 PM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Tuesday, August 28, 2018 at 9:22:36 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
On 8/27/2018 8:15 PM, Bruce Hoult wrote:
"...but although they plan to put some small chalets and a bunkhouse
on the field they are for unknown reasons against permanent residents."
Maybe because sooner or later the permanent residents, who aren't
necessarily glider pilots, will start to complain about the noise. (From
personal experience)
You're the second person to say that. I don't think it stacks up, as there is no practical difference in noise levels for a house 20m inside the airfield boundary vs a house 20m outside the boundary, and the club is more likely to have an ongoing relationship with the one inside the boundary -- and indeed may well have some form of veto on residents written into the lease.

The area with the hangar/clubhouse/bunkhouse/housing is on higher ground 1 km away from the main runway (up the seldom-used "crosswind" runway), and likely to remain that way due to roughly once a year flooding risk from the river adjacent and parallel to the main 2 km long grass runway.

Also, it's a winching site with no resident towplane.

--
Dan, 5J

More specifically, before it became an air park, the homesite acreages were offered and advertised (in Soaring) to glider pilots for 20 years before it was offered to the aviation community. At that point development really took off. In my observation, since becoming a 501(c)(3), the chapter has really turned around. Many improvements to their pilot center including a conference room (partially funded by the airport owners association and used for their meetings), money in the bank, re-engined tow plane, active stable of instructors, and looking to grow. At least one new home builder joined the chapter and completed his rating. Much different from 4-6 years ago and very encouraging. BTW, some of the instructors are using their well equipped Mach 0.1 simulator with students and $8/hour is charged for use.

Frank Whiteley

I just received their newsletter and the simulator is currently $5/hour.

On Wednesday, August 29, 2018 at 8:44:09 AM UTC-7, Dan Marotta wrote:
Winching should make all the difference given a good muffler (silencer)
on the winch.

From the hangar/clubhouse/camping area you don't hear the winch engine (a Skylaunch with the 8 litre petrol option).

What you *can* hear is the Spectra cable cutting sideways through the air. This goes silent the instant the glider releases the cable. I uploaded a video demonstrating this in January:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUnXuMVhKfs

On Monday, August 27, 2018 at 10:15:03 PM UTC-4, Bruce Hoult wrote:
I'd love to see something similar happen at the field Wellington Gliding Club is developing now, but although they plan to put some small chalets and a bunkhouse on the field they are for unknown reasons against permanent residents.

My understanding is that the Greytown Soaring Center, where two gliding clubs are based: 1)Wellington Gliding Club and 2)Gliding Wairarapa, is located on a mosaic of multiple land parcels that have a complex matrix of ownership and land claims (like much of New Zealand). Some (all?) of the land is administered by the Local Council (aka local government). Much of it is flooded periodically through the year, portions are ecologically and culturally sensitive, and a large portion was proposed to be irrigated with liquid treated effluent from Greytown's sewer system (including the runways). As I understand it, they're hoping that nutrients in the effluent will be broken down by the microlife and flora living in the soil before the nutrients find their way into the bordering river (where they would contribute to algae blooms and other ecological problems). Land owner and community sentiments may also play a limiting role in feasible 'development options', but there seems to be an abundance of other reasons that preclude a detached dwelling suburban style 'Air Park' at the Greytown Soaring Center.

I may have scrambled some of this. Brian Sharpe, Ross Sutherland, and others of Wellington Gliding Club would have definitive answers.

They are towing that high to do aerobatics all the way down.

On Sunday, August 26, 2018 at 6:15:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Our Club is reworking towing height fees. We are based south of Denver (elevation 7,000' msl). Normal tow heights are to about 9,000-10,000' msl. We have new members who now are asking for tows to 14,000' msl. This is causing up to 45-minute waits for the next tow. Normally, we get about four or five tows per hours, but a high altitude tow drops us to two tows per hour.

How high does your club allow for tows?


Raul Boerner

ok...44000 feet. Team Perlan..

This comment doesn’t pertain to Perlan, but where I fly, towing to the wave is like paying for sex.