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Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 13th 18, 03:53 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Waveguru
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Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with 5 cable breaks at various heights?

Boggs
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  #2  
Old February 13th 18, 04:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
MNLou
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Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

Check out the website for Cross Country Soaring in Faribault, MN. Don Ingraham worked with international experts to develop a full blown winch training program.

Lou
  #3  
Old February 13th 18, 04:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
JS[_5_]
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Posts: 624
Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 6:53:27 AM UTC-8, Waveguru wrote:
What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with 5 cable breaks at various heights?

Boggs


It's a variable.
About like the minimum number of pilot meetings before introducing a gopher snake.
Sorry, perhaps only Boggs, Kempton and a few others understand.
Jim
  #4  
Old February 13th 18, 05:28 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
son_of_flubber
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Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 9:53:27 AM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot?


Having done 'add-on' winch training at two very different locations... I'd say YMMV. There are a lot of site specific and pilot specific variables. Winch, winch driver, crosswind and rotor, field length and width, glider type, etc.. For me, soloing at site 1 was relevant, but not sufficient to solo at site 2. Proficiency faded quickly without the opportunity to winch at my home club. When I eventually visit another winch launch site, I'll repeat the entire training program from square one. The concept of a 'portable winch launch endorsement' is dubious.

Besides 'simulated rope breaks', we did 'simulated, surprise, and gradual loss of power' at one site and not at the other. Very useful scenario.

https://members.gliding.co.uk/bga-sa...safe-winching/

I'd strongly recommend winch training to any pilot. There is a strongly positive residual effect that carries over to other flying skills even if you don't have the opportunity to regularly winch at home. Winching sharpens your reflexes, perception of fast changing situations, and mental focus during launch. I was much more on top of aerotowing after doing winch launch training. Aerotowing seems to go in slow motion after you do winch launching.


  #5  
Old February 13th 18, 05:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

Way back in 1987, while on business in Alice Springs, NT, Australia, I
visited the Bond Springs gliding club.* I flew a Twin Lark (VH-CQA) off
of a twin drum winch with about a mile of single strand wire for
launches.* A review of my logbook reveals 6 launches including 2 cable
breaks with an instructor and then I began giving rides to my co-workers
who wanted to see what a glider flight was about.

On 2/13/2018 7:53 AM, Waveguru wrote:
What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with 5 cable breaks at various heights?

Boggs


--
Dan, 5J
  #6  
Old February 13th 18, 05:51 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dan Marotta
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Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

And to respond to another post about portability of training, that has
got to be related to experience, quality of training, attitude, and
aptitude.

Following initial qualification in Australia, my next experience was in
Colorado when our club acquired a winch.* We started off slowly and, as
experience increased, we broadened our use of the winch, using it for
the Women's Soaring Seminar in 1993, IIRC, when we took the winch to an
airport in the mountains (Silverwest, C08).* IIRC, at the time the
runway was still dirt, it's since been paved.

Later we took the winch high into Southpark (yes, it's really a place),
where we performed launches at 10,000' MSL.* The winch was great fun in
the winter months (when clear of snow) when there wasn't any lift.* We'd
simply fly multiple patterns and landings. Eventually the winch fell out
of favor and was put aside, though I hear it's coming back into use.

Other ground launch experience has been a couple of soaring safaris
whereby my then-partner and I took a 1,000' rope and ground launches to
fly straight out to the next destination which was chosen based upon the
current weather.* The driver/launcher would take the trailer and follow
along to the next landing spot where we'd spend the night and switch off
the following day.

And finally, there was the Ground Launch Weekend put on by the Las Vegas
Valley Soaring Association at Roach Dry Lake south of Las Vegas, usually
twice per year in April and October.* There they use a truck and an
1,800' rope for launching.* It has been a great time and great parties
at night.* We've attended that gathering three times.

Ground launching is a lot more fun than aero tow and significantly less
expensive.* The real advantage to aero tow, IMO, is that the glider can
be taken to the lift.

On 2/13/2018 9:32 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
Way back in 1987, while on business in Alice Springs, NT, Australia, I
visited the Bond Springs gliding club.* I flew a Twin Lark (VH-CQA)
off of a twin drum winch with about a mile of single strand wire for
launches.* A review of my logbook reveals 6 launches including 2 cable
breaks with an instructor and then I began giving rides to my
co-workers who wanted to see what a glider flight was about.

On 2/13/2018 7:53 AM, Waveguru wrote:
What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get
a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many
cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for
some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with
5 cable breaks at various heights?

Boggs



--
Dan, 5J
  #7  
Old February 13th 18, 05:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Bruce Hoult
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Posts: 961
Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 5:53:27 PM UTC+3, Waveguru wrote:
What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with 5 cable breaks at various heights?


I suppose it is hard to generalise, but here is my (rather meagre) winching history.

Prior gliding experience: 64 hours and 118 flights in Blanik, Ka6 and Club Libelle, all aerotow.

1993-05-09: five winch launches in a Ka7

Another 45 hours (111 total) and 60 flights in Blanik, Ka6, ASK13, Club Libelle, Std Libelle, Janus all from aerotow.

1993-12-18: eight winch launches in Ka7, 1st solo
1993-12-19: one winch check flight and one solo in Ka7
1993-12-27: one winch check flight in Ka7, two soaring solos in Ka6

Aerotow flying, taking total time to 220 hours, 296 flights...

2004-01-04: two winch launches (both P2) in Janus, soaring

Aerotow flying, taking total time to 240 hours...

2005-01-05: one winch check flight in ASK13, five solo practice (day was not soarable)

Aerotow flying, taking total time to 400 hours, then a three year gap with no flying at all...

2018-01-07 one winch check flight in DG1000. BFR signed. Instructor's note: one more dual flight before solo DG1000 on winch. (Sadly weather and schedule prevented that)

Probably I'll be back in NZ more permanently in a couple of months, and get a lot more winch experience, as my club has converted entirely from aerotow to winch while I've been in Russia.
  #8  
Old February 13th 18, 06:21 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
son_of_flubber
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Posts: 1,550
Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 11:51:54 AM UTC-5, Dan Marotta wrote:
And to respond to another post about portability of training, that has
got to be related to experience, quality of training, attitude, and
aptitude.


Agreed. The field and wind make a big difference as well. Training at a big field does not fully prepare you for this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbQtkLI24dA&t=2s

I agree that simulated rope breaks hone the drop-nose-reflex for breaking a weak link in turbulence.



  #9  
Old February 13th 18, 06:55 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Karl Striedieck[_2_]
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Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

From the the five years of winch training, amounting to about 1000 launches (and 52 years of auto launching) at Eagle Field I'd be hard pressed to improve on "Son of Flubber's" response.

But here are some comments anyway.

During the ground school preceeding flying a caveat we emphasize is that launching out of Eagle Field in a Duo with a 330 HP winch will equip the pilot with a good foundation in the technique, but a thorough briefing/checkout is necessary at any other site because it will have different conditions.

Our course consists of a minimum of 10 flights with an emphasis on unexpected launch termination (weak link breaks, etc.) At release the instructor takes over, dives, pulls to 60 degrees nose up and hollers "bang" as the speed winds back through 60 knots. At that point the student buries the stick in the panel until the nose is below the horizon and the total energy situation is assessed. These maneuvers are repeated three or four times on every launch until the student can do it asleep.

The only launch failure we fly is the most critical one - failure just as max nose up attitude is reached - about 150 feet.

There can be a wide variation in a student's aptitude for the training. For German's, Brits, etc. who learned on the winch and are looking for an FAA sign off this flying is a formality. At the other end are pilots not used to pointing "straight up" and need some repetitions to quell the hyperventilating.

And, echoing Flubber's comments about expanding "stickmanship," winch training is an excellent venue to expand a pilot's envelope of comfort with unusual attitudes. Could come in handy some day if they find themselves unexpectantly pointed in the wrong direction.

And these motorless "cat shots" are fun! Beats any Six Flags or Cedar Point ride.

KS





  #10  
Old February 13th 18, 07:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Charlie M. (UH & 002 owner/pilot)
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Posts: 1,383
Default Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

Hey Karl, I'm really looking forward to remove my "aero tow only" restriction on my US cert.
Whether at Mifflin (great place to fly) or your field, still worth the price and knowledge.

Hopefully I can, "get my poop compacted" to either one of those.

Hope to see you during the '18 season somewhere.
 




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