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Portable TABS coming to the USA?



 
 
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  #1  
Old November 19th 19, 10:47 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
son_of_flubber
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Default Portable TABS coming to the USA?

Is portable TABS (non 2020 compliant ADS-B-out) coming to the USA in 2020?

This unit looks a lot like portable TABS.
https://uavionix.com/products/skyecho/
It also implements FLARM, and I think that would need to be disabled in the USA. The price point looks right.
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  #2  
Old November 20th 19, 12:05 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Default Portable TABS coming to the USA?

Why would you think this is coming next year? This has been around in the UK for a while and commented on here before. It's a very UK thing, and part of an interesting UK GA specific program that uAvionix is involved with.

Be very careful, this is NOT a TABS aka TSO-C199 or FLARM device in the way glider pilots in the USA will think of it.

It has FLARM receive only, so not really that useful in gliders. It also does not support FLARM serial protocol AFAIK so can't display traffic on a typical glider traffic display.

Since "TABS" has no real meaning except as a synonym for TCO-C199 I would not call this a TABS device, and uAvionix do not say that AFAIK. It's a UK CAP 1391 Intermediate ECD device. Huh what? yes exactly, but please stop calling it a TABS device.

It implements TABS Class B i.e. the GPS receiver part only.

It implements some form of a subset of 1090ES Out, but does not implement that to the TABS/TSO-C199 Class A spec for the 1090ES transmitter part. For starters at only 25W output power it's significantly below the 70W TSO-C199 minimal power requirements. But again, its "UK CAP 1391" built for the special needs of the UK market.

The documentation talks about RTCA DO-260B output messages and not TSO-C199 Class A or any mention of DO-181E (Mode-S) or any other standard others that would imply any transponder like capabilities and therefore I suspect this device is not compatible with TCAS, TCAD or PCAS systems. But I note that their website mentions TCAS visibility, that may be a typo and I suspect they meant to say CDTI. I will send them an email. It appears that few airlines in the USA have any ADS-B In capability, so not having TCAS compatibility would be a significant issue. I expect that will be a significant issue in regions of the UK as well... but if you are focused in low-cost you can't implement transponder capabilities. uAvionix marketing statements about visibility to ATC also seem to be UK specific, SIL=1 devices are not visible to ATC controllers in the USA (I wish they were).

A Trig Transponder and TN72 GPS (which also implements TABS Class B GPS receiver specs) gets you *all* the TABS Class A+B goodies by fact that he transponder implements all the parts of Class A support that this device will not. It also gets you more than TABS... including visibility to ATC via SSR/transponder interrogations that a pure TABS device will not... and that UK CAP 1391 devices also will not.

There is no sign this has FCC approval or is seeking it. It also just does not seem to make sense for uAvionix to do that for the USA market, where they already very nice GA products tailored for the USA GA market.



On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 1:47:34 PM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
Is portable TABS (non 2020 compliant ADS-B-out) coming to the USA in 2020?

This unit looks a lot like portable TABS.
https://uavionix.com/products/skyecho/
It also implements FLARM, and I think that would need to be disabled in the USA. The price point looks right.


  #3  
Old November 20th 19, 12:06 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
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Default Portable TABS coming to the USA?

On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 4:47:34 PM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
https://uavionix.com/products/skyecho/
It also implements FLARM, and I think that would need to be disabled in the USA.


Please note:
- not for use in USA.
- it does *NOT* implement FLARM; rather it sends on 1090 which is *received*
by PowerFLARM (not regular FLARM).

  #4  
Old November 20th 19, 01:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
son_of_flubber
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Default Portable TABS coming to the USA?

Let me rephrase my question.

Is there anything on the horizon for portable TABS in the USA?
  #5  
Old November 20th 19, 01:50 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Portable TABS coming to the USA?

Yo Darryl,
I’ve got a good GPS and a mode D Transponder with altimeter, what will I need to comply with ADS-B out and about how much is it likely to cost me? Please don’t tell me all this expensive equipment won’t be used!
Thanks,
JJ
  #6  
Old November 20th 19, 03:22 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Posts: 2,403
Default Portable TABS coming to the USA?

On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 4:48:42 PM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
Let me rephrase my question.

Is there anything on the horizon for portable TABS in the USA?


Let me give you a Dave style reply...

No. Unlikely not. Not that I know.

---

Unfortunately I'll also give you a Darryl style reply later. :-)
  #7  
Old November 20th 19, 03:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Default Portable TABS coming to the USA?

On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 4:50:21 PM UTC-8, wrote:
Yo Darryl,
I’ve got a good GPS and a mode D Transponder with altimeter, what will I need to comply with ADS-B out and about how much is it likely to cost me? Please don’t tell me all this expensive equipment won’t be used!
Thanks,
JJ


JJ

YO? You can't Yo me, that is Dave.

Uh Mode D? Whoa you have all the future stuff. :-)

If you want real help email me what exact avionics etc. you have and what you are trying to achieve.

Darryl
  #8  
Old November 20th 19, 05:20 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Darryl Ramm
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Default Portable TABS coming to the USA?

On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 6:22:28 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 4:48:42 PM UTC-8, son_of_flubber wrote:
Let me rephrase my question.

Is there anything on the horizon for portable TABS in the USA?


Let me give you a Dave style reply...

No. Unlikely not. Not that I know.

---

Unfortunately I'll also give you a Darryl style reply later. :-)


Darryl style reply...

TABS/TSO-C199 was the largely the response by the FAA to pressure from the NTSB over the Minden Hawker 800/ASG-29 mid-air collision. Besides the development of the TSO specifications and TRIG shipping the TN72 nothing else really happened that affects gliders in the USA . The FAA folks who worked on this seemed to quickly move onto other stuff, they did not stick around on the project, lots of other folks in the FAA seem to have no clue what it is about, and seem to struggle to find who to contact. There are no 14 CFR regulations that affect anything to do with TABS, it's this weird stand-alone TSO-spec. Lots of FSDO folks get confused and assume 14 CFR 91.227 type regulations apply,... they don't. And likewise TABS gives no 14 CFR 91.225 privileges. I was hoping there might have been soem FAA promotion/marketing around this. Nope just tossed it out and ran away (but I sure appreciate the TSO was developed).

So what is the possibility of anything new coming along for the USA glider market. Pretty damn slim I expect. No sane company is going to invest money in developing stuff specific for the USA glider market. What is important for much larger USA GA market is 2020 compliance and that is where vendors have been and will keep focusing. Trig was actually smart and able to develop a TABS and "meets 14 CFR 91.227 requirements" so the TN72 GPS could be used do TABS or be used for for 2020 compliance in experimental aircraft)..

Enigma Aviation in Australia was playing with an TABS device, I think they have ceased to be, have shuffled off this perch, and are no more

I don't see any reason to want a *portable* TABS device. Pragmatically you would need to deal with plumbing it into aircraft static lines etc. (accurate pressure attitude is especially critical for TCAS). TSO-C199 specifies using a static line connection. And I'd want that 70W RF antenna external and facign down for the ADS-B Ground towers. I worry the idea of "portable TABS" is a throwback to the portable UAT for glider vaporware we were hearing over a decade ago, confused technology hype that had no chance of ever getting to market. But what did happen was that interest did come together, with inspiration and advice from companies including Mitre, FLARM and Trig who worked with the FAA that resulted in the TSO-C199 spec.

TABS derived in part from the earlier LPSE (low power surveillance equipment, aka low power Mode-S) spec ideas, largely from the UK. And it seemed at one point that the UK might adopt literal TABS/TSO-C199, but they did not, instead you get a slightly different take with this UK CAP 1391 stuff.

But if somebody was developing a developing portable TABS box, I would not be so arrogant to assume I would necessarily know about it...

---

What do I expect to change in the USA?...

I expect PowerFLARM to get ADS-R and TIS-B Support. I *hope* something like mid-2020 as a software upgrade for current PowerFLARMs. I and others in the USA have been helping FLARM out with some of that, e.g. we've had a prototype PowerFLARM running sniffing ADS-B data in the SF Bay Area and I just helped install a TT21/TN72 TABS systems in 9B's ASW27 so we can test ADS-R and TIS-B in that.

I would have loved to say I was excited about the LXNav FlarmMouse, but I'm not. LXNav Decided to do their own thing with ADS-B support and uses no FLARM code for that part of the device. That creates a concerting fork in features, behavior and code base. I believe the current LXNav ADS-B In code will plot 1090ES traffic on a FLARM compatible display but will not create FLARM style warnings for that traffic. And (like PowerFLARM today) it does not implement ADS-R or TIS-B. It's also a bit more to deal with the 1090ES firmware now being separate from the FLARM firmware so you have to use a separate update process than the single step you would in a PowerFLARM, and some folks are already having problems getting updates to work. And I'm concerned by the LXNav FlarmMouse documentation not being clear about any of this.. All in all a move I cannot understand for a company that otherwise makes fantastic impressive products. And they went to all the effort to FCC certify that box. Arrrgggg.

LXNavigation Eagle looks nice, uses FLARM chips and firmware for both FLARM and 1090ES In. Will have ADS-R and TIS-B support coming as well. But unfortunately the Eagle is not FCC approved. I have no idea if LX Navigation has plans to do that.

I have no expectation Trig is going to change anything in the short term, and nether would they tell me/want me to say here :-) My interest there is encouraging people to get ADS-B out installs (2020 Compliant or TABS if they can't get 2020 Compliance) using the TN72. My most hopeful request of Trig at the moment is to change the TN72 Packaging to also include some male crimp connectors for the transponder end of the cable... just to make it easy for installers doing upgrades.... basically they have a great solution that works today. The TA70 antenna install in type certified gliders is still a PITA if you are stuck with a type certified glider and want 2020 ADS-B Out compliance.

And largely ah just forget hoping for TABS futureware ... Not when none of the other transponder vendors that make compact transponders suitable for use in gliders have done anything to get compatibility with 2020 Complaint ADS-B Out or TABS. Not even upgrading their device firmware to DO-260B/TSO-C166b/aka ADS-B v2 when they already have DO-260A/TSO-C166a/ADS-B v1 today and the code changes are not huge. And none of those vendors have funded the development of an STC (like the TRIG TT22/TN70 one) that would allow 2020 Compliant ADS-B Out installs in type certified aircraft (including gliders). Those vendors like Becker and Air Avionics left it so late they have missed so much of the GA migration to ADS-B Out in the USA that I assume they never will do this work. I can't quite fathom why they did not try, but assume they know the costs and decided it's just not worth it.





























  #9  
Old November 20th 19, 06:07 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
son_of_flubber
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Default Portable TABS coming to the USA?

On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 11:20:43 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:

I expect PowerFLARM to get ADS-R and TIS-B Support.


That's great. Thanks for helping make this happen.
  #10  
Old November 20th 19, 02:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Dave Nadler
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Default Portable TABS coming to the USA?

On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 9:22:28 PM UTC-5, Darryl Ramm wrote:
Let me give you a Dave style reply...
No. Unlikely not. Not that I know.
---
Unfortunately I'll also give you a Darryl style reply later. :-)


Hey! My grammar is better than that.
JJ: No. Forget it. Take two aspirin and call me in the morning.
 




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