Dr Hans Kammler

Can anyone tell me if the death of SS Obergruppenfuhrer Kammler was
ever resolved or ever investigated fully by any government after WWII.
There seems to be alot of speculation about this man, is there a
single piece of documentary evidence to suggest his involvment with
any German nuclear programme during WWII. I have heard his name
mentioned in relation to a host of secret projects, death ray weapons
etc but never has this been supported by any historical documents.
Nick Cooke mentions him in his book but really Cooke just spins the
same old Nazi UFO yarn which has been doing the rounds this past 20
years or so - in his revised 'who dunnit format'.

Could Kammler have survived the war and made a peace deal with the
allies as Gen Wolff did in Operation Sunrise? I think if Kammler's war
diary could be found it would answer alot of interesting questions.
Comments welcomed.

Andy

On 23 Feb 2004 09:25:07 -0800, (Andy Simmons)
disturbed the phosphur particles on my screen with the following:

Can anyone tell me if the death of SS Obergruppenfuhrer Kammler was
ever resolved or ever investigated fully by any government after WWII.
There seems to be alot of speculation about this man, is there a
single piece of documentary evidence to suggest his involvment with
any German nuclear programme during WWII. I have heard his name
mentioned in relation to a host of secret projects, death ray weapons
etc but never has this been supported by any historical documents.
Nick Cooke mentions him in his book but really Cooke just spins the
same old Nazi UFO yarn which has been doing the rounds this past 20
years or so - in his revised 'who dunnit format'.

Could Kammler have survived the war and made a peace deal with the
allies as Gen Wolff did in Operation Sunrise? I think if Kammler's war
diary could be found it would answer alot of interesting questions.
Comments welcomed.

There's a ****load of stuff easily found with Google.

"Andy Simmons" wrote in message
om...
Can anyone tell me if the death of SS Obergruppenfuhrer Kammler was
ever resolved or ever investigated fully by any government after WWII.

No and thats not surprising considering the chaos overwhelming Germany
at the time. Dornberger (who hated the man) reported that Kammler
had ordered his adjutatnt to shoot him and its known that he didnt
acompany those that fled towards the American forces


There seems to be alot of speculation about this man, is there a
single piece of documentary evidence to suggest his involvment with
any German nuclear programme during WWII.

None at all. He was an 'expert' at running concentration camps
not a physicist or engineer and the German nuclear program
was never more than a relatively low key research program
that never employed more than a 100 or so people.

I have heard his name
mentioned in relation to a host of secret projects, death ray weapons
etc but never has this been supported by any historical documents.
Nick Cooke mentions him in his book but really Cooke just spins the
same old Nazi UFO yarn which has been doing the rounds this past 20
years or so - in his revised 'who dunnit format'.

Could Kammler have survived the war and made a peace deal with the
allies as Gen Wolff did in Operation Sunrise?

No, he really had nothing to offer, the Americans had Dornberger,
Von Braun etc. while Heisenberg and co were safely under wraps
at Farm Hall were it became apparent they were knew less than
the western allies had in 1942.

The Soviets of course had no shortage of people who knew how to
build Gulag's and the west had no need to so his one area of expertise
was throughly redundant.

Its remotely possible that he got out through and became a
farmer in Argentina but doubtful IMHO

I think if Kammler's war
diary could be found it would answer alot of interesting questions.

Assuming he kept one.

Keith

No, he really had nothing to offer, the Americans had Dornberger,
Von Braun etc. while Heisenberg and co were safely under wraps
at Farm Hall were it became apparent they were knew less than
the western allies had in 1942.

Was it not Kammler, however, who handed the rocket scientists over to
the Americans. I know Kammler was not physically present but it was
him who disobeyed Himmler's orders to "give each scientist a rifle and
send them to the Eastern front". From the book 'The Rocket Team' it
was Kammler who ferried the scientists to safety aboard his private
train, which the scientists had nicknamed the 'Vengenace Express'.
Kammler also told Speer in April 1945 that he was going to make a deal
with the Americans, in which he would trade the rockets and other
developments for his freedom. Another book by Jean Michel 'DORA' ( a
survivor of the camp) claims that Kammler was secretly dealing with
the French Resistance towards the end of the war. Was it not Kammler
who also left the Harz mountain missile complex in fully functioning
order for the American handover, once again disobeying orders to
destroy the factories and their contents? One could argue that the
"Americans only had Dornberger, Von Braun and the rockets etc" only
because Kammler made it so. I disagree with you when you say that
Kammler had nothing to offer.

A number of years ago when I was researching this subject I exchanged
several letters with one of Kammler's sons. He told me that the
Americans had made numerous attempts to contact his father. This is
certainly not something that you will read about in any conventional
history books today.

Its remotely possible that he got out through and became a
farmer in Argentina but doubtful IMHO

IMHO? I have heard this story from several sources, recently a German
lawyer has claimed that General Kammler actually survived the war and
lived in Czechoslovakia as part of a joint deal with the US and
Russia.

I think if Kammler's war diary could be found it would answer alot of interesting questions.

Assuming he kept one.

According to historian Prof Gerald Flemming (whom I have spoken to
several times regarding this issue) Flemming was told in the 1970s by
Czech authorities that General Kammler surrendered his war diary to
American soldiers on the road to Pilsen during the evacuation of
Prague in May 1945. When Flemming requested access to the diary,
however, he was refused and the authorities quickly changed their
story regarding the whereabouts of the Kammler's war diary.
Intriguing!

Andy

"Andy Simmons" wrote in message
m...
No, he really had nothing to offer, the Americans had Dornberger,
Von Braun etc. while Heisenberg and co were safely under wraps
at Farm Hall were it became apparent they were knew less than
the western allies had in 1942.

Was it not Kammler, however, who handed the rocket scientists over to
the Americans.

No. At the end of January 1945 the scientists were still based at Peenemunde
but with the Russians getting close Kammler ordered the evacuation of the
base.



on the 3rd April 1945 Kammler ordered the scientists to be taken
from Peenemunde to a base in the Bavarian alps because US tanks
were suposedly reportedly this you may recall was at the
time expected to be the last redoubt until Hitler changed
his mind and decided to stay in Berlin

General Dornberger quickly moved his headquarters to the village
of Bad Sachsa; Dr. Kurt Debus, director of the test stands, took
his team to Cuxhaven on the North Sea; and during February the
entire organization moved with its documents and equipment to
the cotton-mill town of Bleicherode, twelve miles from Nordhausen.

The report of American tanks in the vicinty prompetd Kammler
to order that they be moved under armed guard to the
Bavarian redoubt. Von Braun joined Dornberger at Oberjoch near
the Adolf Hitler Pass where they kicked their heels for the next month
until the area was overun by the US 44th division.

Far from surrendering them to the Americans at Nordhausen the
Kammler had them shipped to Bavaria where it was believed the
Nazis were planning to make their last stand.

I know Kammler was not physically present but it was
him who disobeyed Himmler's orders to "give each scientist a rifle and
send them to the Eastern front". From the book 'The Rocket Team' it
was Kammler who ferried the scientists to safety aboard his private
train, which the scientists had nicknamed the 'Vengenace Express'.

Nope they were shipped under SS guard to Oberjoch where they
remained until captured by the US 44th Infantry division on 3rd May
By then nobody had seen Kammler for a month and it was reported that
he had been shot by his aide on April 7th.

Note that they were initially held there in a guarded barbed wire enclosure
until Von Braun persuaded the guards that they were vulnerable
to allied bombing and should be moved into the town of
Oberammergau

Note that Kammler ordered Von Braun and Dornberger to hide or destroy
all technical documents that would of use to the Americans, if he
had truly done a deal he would surely have taken charge of them.

Kammler also told Speer in April 1945 that he was going to make a deal
with the Americans, in which he would trade the rockets and other
developments for his freedom.

I rather doubt that for the simple reason that Speer was rather
busy trying to save the remnants of German industry and
infrastructure while Kammler was at Nordhausen until April 3
when it was evacuated , he was never seen again after April 7th.
In any even Kammler and Speer were scarcely on good terms.

Another book by Jean Michel 'DORA' ( a
survivor of the camp) claims that Kammler was secretly dealing with
the French Resistance towards the end of the war. Was it not Kammler
who also left the Harz mountain missile complex in fully functioning
order for the American handover, once again disobeying orders to
destroy the factories and their contents?

They scarcely had time to get before the Americans arrived
let alone destroy anything and far from handing over Von Braun
& co Kammler shipped them off to Bavaria

One could argue that the
"Americans only had Dornberger, Von Braun and the rockets etc" only
because Kammler made it so. I disagree with you when you say that
Kammler had nothing to offer.


This would seem to contradict the written testimony of Speer,
Dornberger, Von braun etc

A number of years ago when I was researching this subject I exchanged
several letters with one of Kammler's sons. He told me that the
Americans had made numerous attempts to contact his father. This is
certainly not something that you will read about in any conventional
history books today.


Probably because there is no evidence that it ever happened.

Its remotely possible that he got out through and became a
farmer in Argentina but doubtful IMHO

IMHO? I have heard this story from several sources, recently a German
lawyer has claimed that General Kammler actually survived the war and
lived in Czechoslovakia as part of a joint deal with the US and
Russia.


And I've heard stories that Elvis is alive and well and working in
a chip shop in Barnsley, that doesnt make it true.


I think if Kammler's war diary could be found it would answer alot of
interesting questions.

Assuming he kept one.

According to historian Prof Gerald Flemming (whom I have spoken to
several times regarding this issue) Flemming was told in the 1970s by
Czech authorities that General Kammler surrendered his war diary to
American soldiers on the road to Pilsen during the evacuation of
Prague in May 1945. When Flemming requested access to the diary,
however, he was refused and the authorities quickly changed their
story regarding the whereabouts of the Kammler's war diary.
Intriguing!


So thats at least 3 contradictory anecdotes you've heard, rumors are
like that I'm afraid.

Keith

By then nobody had seen Kammler for a month and it was reported that
he had been shot by his aide on April 7th.

Just another rumour, marvellous aren't they those war time
rumours!......

Official documentation clearly shows that Kammler was still issuing
orders in late April 1945, his last telegram on April 17th refused
Himmler access to a Junkers truck (which several authors have
interpreted as being the JU390, a plane suitable for long haul non
stop cargo flight). Incidently, one of the last photographs of the
JU390 was of it being loaded with cargo on an air field in
Czechoslovakia). After the war the JU390 was never found. Further
historical documents tell us that on 22nd April 1945 Kammler agreed to
a request of Gallands to relocate ME 262 jets to the vacinity of
Prague. Galland recorded his last kill on April 26th, when flying a
Me-262 he shot down a B-26 Marauder before being crash landing after
being shot up by a P-47 Thunderbolt piloted by Lt. Jim Finnegan of the
U.S. 50th Fighter Group.

As for the elusive General Kammler, no less than six different
accounts (each with a sworn witness statement) exist describing the
death, suicide/heroric death charge of the General. James Lucas' 'Last
Days of the Reich' even gives another sworn statement (a detailed
account of the evacuation of the German families trapped in Prague to
the American lines at Pilsen). This account clearly states that
Kammler was in Prague on May 7th.

A number of years ago when I was researching this subject I exchanged
several letters with one of Kammler's sons. He told me that the
Americans had made numerous attempts to contact his father. This is
certainly not something that you will read about in any conventional
history books today

Probably because there is no evidence that it ever happened

Not according to Kammler's late wife who spoke about it often to her
sons.
Again I disagree with you strongly when you say kammler had nothing to
trade.

IMHO? I have heard this story from several sources, recently a German
lawyer has claimed that General Kammler actually survived the war and
lived in Czechoslovakia as part of a joint deal with the US and
Russia.

And I've heard stories that Elvis is alive and well and working in
a chip shop in Barnsley, that doesnt make it true.

Documentary evidence from this German legal source, (these documents
have been confirmed as authentic by independent forensic examiners)
indicate that General Kammler was involved in an organised technology/
financial transfer out of Germany at the wars end. Meetings are
currently taking place with representatives from a number of Swiss
Banks to investiagte these documents further. These meetings were only
agreed to when bank account numbers and names were decoded from these
documents and presented to the banks by the German investigators.

Did Kammler do a deal? ......possibly we'll have to wait and see.

Andy

"Andy Simmons" wrote in message
om...
By then nobody had seen Kammler for a month and it was reported that
he had been shot by his aide on April 7th.

Just another rumour, marvellous aren't they those war time
rumours!......

Official documentation clearly shows that Kammler was still issuing
orders in late April 1945, his last telegram on April 17th refused
Himmler access to a Junkers truck (which several authors have
interpreted as being the JU390, a plane suitable for long haul non
stop cargo flight).

Cite please, we know that Himmler was meeting with
Count Bernadotte in Lubeck on April 24


Incidently, one of the last photographs of the
JU390 was of it being loaded with cargo on an air field in
Czechoslovakia). After the war the JU390 was never found. Further
historical documents tell us that on 22nd April 1945 Kammler agreed to
a request of Gallands to relocate ME 262 jets to the vacinity of
Prague.

Nonsense. Galland was appointed commander of JV-44 in Febuary 1945
It was based at Brandenburg Briest until 3rd April 1945 and then relocated
to Munich Riem in Bavaria were it stayed until 29 April 1945

Galland recorded his last kill on April 26th, when flying a
Me-262 he shot down a B-26 Marauder before being crash landing after
being shot up by a P-47 Thunderbolt piloted by Lt. Jim Finnegan of the
U.S. 50th Fighter Group.


This was however NOT near Prague it was in fact over Neuberg
in Bavaria

As for the elusive General Kammler, no less than six different
accounts (each with a sworn witness statement) exist describing the
death, suicide/heroric death charge of the General. James Lucas' 'Last
Days of the Reich' even gives another sworn statement (a detailed
account of the evacuation of the German families trapped in Prague to
the American lines at Pilsen). This account clearly states that
Kammler was in Prague on May 7th.


Which would have made it somewhat difficult for him to escape to the
Americans since the Soviets took that city

A number of years ago when I was researching this subject I exchanged
several letters with one of Kammler's sons. He told me that the
Americans had made numerous attempts to contact his father. This is
certainly not something that you will read about in any conventional
history books today

Probably because there is no evidence that it ever happened

Not according to Kammler's late wife who spoke about it often to her
sons.
Again I disagree with you strongly when you say kammler had nothing to
trade.


Thats your right of course but since the Americans had the
technicians , scientists and documents ....

IMHO? I have heard this story from several sources, recently a German
lawyer has claimed that General Kammler actually survived the war and
lived in Czechoslovakia as part of a joint deal with the US and
Russia.

And I've heard stories that Elvis is alive and well and working in
a chip shop in Barnsley, that doesnt make it true.

Documentary evidence from this German legal source, (these documents
have been confirmed as authentic by independent forensic examiners)

As were the Hitler diaries as I recall

indicate that General Kammler was involved in an organised technology/
financial transfer out of Germany at the wars end. Meetings are
currently taking place with representatives from a number of Swiss
Banks to investiagte these documents further. These meetings were only
agreed to when bank account numbers and names were decoded from these
documents and presented to the banks by the German investigators.


SS financial transfers to Swiss banks are scarcely news

Did Kammler do a deal? ......possibly we'll have to wait and see.


Keith