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Info boxes when thermalling?



 
 
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  #11  
Old May 29th 15, 02:27 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Default Info boxes when thermalling?

On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 11:30:56 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 8:35:06 AM UTC-7, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
Hello All,

I am interested in what information other pilots feel is most important when thermalling.

Thanks,

Blake 3Y


The old Winpilot had, and continues to have to this day, the best thermaling display. It switches to that display when you want it, switches back when you don't, automatically. Displays a scrolling graph of average climb with lines representing both the Mc setting and average climb of the day as reference. It depicts the climb around the circle as a tilted, rotating 3D cylindrical graph, at a glance you get a complete picture of the thermal. It inserts a correction vector on the graph indicating which direction, and how much to correct. It is quite accurate even in very trashy conditions. It also animates the Flarm targets around the cylinder (which shows their relative position and altitude) for excellent situational awareness of traffic in the thermal. Nothing in SYM, XCSoar, iGlide, or (sadly) the new iOS Winpilot even comes close.


fitch, you elaborated precisely why I'm still flying Winpilot Pro on an Avier. Have always felt like the climb maximizer is my 'secret weapon'. When comparing flights in the same airmass with my peers, I find that I have the highest average climb rates (not when John Cochrane is around).
  #12  
Old May 29th 15, 04:33 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default Info boxes when thermalling?

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 6:27:10 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, May 28, 2015 at 11:30:56 AM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, May 26, 2015 at 8:35:06 AM UTC-7, Blake Seese 3Y wrote:
Hello All,

I am interested in what information other pilots feel is most important when thermalling.

Thanks,

Blake 3Y


The old Winpilot had, and continues to have to this day, the best thermaling display. It switches to that display when you want it, switches back when you don't, automatically. Displays a scrolling graph of average climb with lines representing both the Mc setting and average climb of the day as reference. It depicts the climb around the circle as a tilted, rotating 3D cylindrical graph, at a glance you get a complete picture of the thermal. It inserts a correction vector on the graph indicating which direction, and how much to correct. It is quite accurate even in very trashy conditions. It also animates the Flarm targets around the cylinder (which shows their relative position and altitude) for excellent situational awareness of traffic in the thermal. Nothing in SYM, XCSoar, iGlide, or (sadly) the new iOS Winpilot even comes close.


fitch, you elaborated precisely why I'm still flying Winpilot Pro on an Avier. Have always felt like the climb maximizer is my 'secret weapon'. When comparing flights in the same airmass with my peers, I find that I have the highest average climb rates (not when John Cochrane is around).


I might be still using too it but it is not supported and no longer works with the Butterfly vario.

I have found the Winpilot assistant often as good as the results of my full attention, and always nearly as good. This allows much more time to study the weather, course, eat lunch, and contemplate the world. It requires no more than a glance every circle or so.

Here is my test for a thermal assistant: While my engine is folded back but not stowed - its cool down period - the tail triple probe pneumatics are subject to severe turbulence from the engine, bay doors, and prop. The vario needle will swing rapidly and continuously from stop to stop. I have a spare vario hooked to the fuselage static and can use that, but it is uncompensated. However, using the Winpilot thermal assistant interpreting this noisy signal, and following it's correction suggestion, I can reliably center a thermal about as well as anyone. I have tried that with SYM, XCSoar, and iGlide and they are hopeless.
  #13  
Old May 29th 15, 05:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
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Default Info boxes when thermalling?

I disagree that XCSoar thermaling assistance info box is hopeless. It is in fact working perfectly 90% of the time. Like John, if I stay focus I can do as good or better than the thermal assistance, but if I let myself loose concentration (usually when talking in the radio or focusing on something else) the XCSoar thermal assistance helps me getting back to the core in one circle 9 out of 10 times. The nice thing about it is that it does not replace your moving map, so you can see both your zoomed in circles and the thermal assistance info box at the same one, and have all the information you need.

Ramy
  #14  
Old May 29th 15, 06:56 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Default Info boxes when thermalling?

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 9:38:04 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
I disagree that XCSoar thermaling assistance info box is hopeless. It is in fact working perfectly 90% of the time. Like John, if I stay focus I can do as good or better than the thermal assistance, but if I let myself loose concentration (usually when talking in the radio or focusing on something else) the XCSoar thermal assistance helps me getting back to the core in one circle 9 out of 10 times. The nice thing about it is that it does not replace your moving map, so you can see both your zoomed in circles and the thermal assistance info box at the same one, and have all the information you need.

Ramy


Ramy,

I didn't mean that the XCSoar thermal assistant is hopeless, but hopeless in that circumstance indicating it is not as sophisticated. It is not as good as the Winpilot version in any circumstance, but not hopeless. Most of them work on the same principle, but the tuning and presentation are significantly different. The exception is iGlide, when coupled with the Butterfly vario the principle is quite different: each 1 second lift dot (size and color differ with lift strength) has also an instantaneous wind vector, these tend to pretty reliably point towards the center of the thermal. This is interesting, but requires more attention and interpretation than either Winpilot or XCSoar. Also the others assume the thermal is symmetric about its axis, iGlide does not and will map out a 2 core or asymmetric thermal.
  #15  
Old May 29th 15, 07:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andy Blackburn[_3_]
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Default Info boxes when thermalling?

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 10:56:52 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 9:38:04 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
I disagree that XCSoar thermaling assistance info box is hopeless. It is in fact working perfectly 90% of the time. Like John, if I stay focus I can do as good or better than the thermal assistance, but if I let myself loose concentration (usually when talking in the radio or focusing on something else) the XCSoar thermal assistance helps me getting back to the core in one circle 9 out of 10 times. The nice thing about it is that it does not replace your moving map, so you can see both your zoomed in circles and the thermal assistance info box at the same one, and have all the information you need.

Ramy


Ramy,

I didn't mean that the XCSoar thermal assistant is hopeless, but hopeless in that circumstance indicating it is not as sophisticated. It is not as good as the Winpilot version in any circumstance, but not hopeless. Most of them work on the same principle, but the tuning and presentation are significantly different. The exception is iGlide, when coupled with the Butterfly vario the principle is quite different: each 1 second lift dot (size and color differ with lift strength) has also an instantaneous wind vector, these tend to pretty reliably point towards the center of the thermal. This is interesting, but requires more attention and interpretation than either Winpilot or XCSoar. Also the others assume the thermal is symmetric about its axis, iGlide does not and will map out a 2 core or asymmetric thermal.


I was a hard core WinPilot climb maximizer snob, but I finally gave up because of the hardware platforms and general lack of development. SeeYou Mobile used to be terrible, but the latest version has a pretty cool thermal strength breadcrumb display that works quite well and helps tease out thermal shape, multiple cores, etc. It would be nice if it did a better job of graying out the track after 5 or 6 turns or overlaying the newer tracks (for climb maximizer mode separate from navigate mode), but overall I like it a lot better than Naviter's prior efforts. It's also cool that it is just a zoomed in version of the normal moving map display with some additional "move the center this way" guidance (guidance is good, but still not quite as definitive as WinPilot's was). You can use your trace to come back to the location of the core near a turnpoint, etc. It's also a lot better at starting right when you start thermalling - it used to take a turn or so to get going, which was just what you didn't need.

Andy
9B
  #16  
Old May 29th 15, 07:54 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
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Posts: 601
Default Info boxes when thermalling?

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 10:56:52 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 9:38:04 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
I disagree that XCSoar thermaling assistance info box is hopeless. It is in fact working perfectly 90% of the time. Like John, if I stay focus I can do as good or better than the thermal assistance, but if I let myself loose concentration (usually when talking in the radio or focusing on something else) the XCSoar thermal assistance helps me getting back to the core in one circle 9 out of 10 times. The nice thing about it is that it does not replace your moving map, so you can see both your zoomed in circles and the thermal assistance info box at the same one, and have all the information you need.

Ramy


Ramy,

I didn't mean that the XCSoar thermal assistant is hopeless, but hopeless in that circumstance indicating it is not as sophisticated. It is not as good as the Winpilot version in any circumstance, but not hopeless. Most of them work on the same principle, but the tuning and presentation are significantly different. The exception is iGlide, when coupled with the Butterfly vario the principle is quite different: each 1 second lift dot (size and color differ with lift strength) has also an instantaneous wind vector, these tend to pretty reliably point towards the center of the thermal. This is interesting, but requires more attention and interpretation than either Winpilot or XCSoar. Also the others assume the thermal is symmetric about its axis, iGlide does not and will map out a 2 core or asymmetric thermal.



I actually see the simplicity of the XCSoar thermal assistance as advantage.. It is totally intuitive and only require a glimpse to know when to level off momentarily (it is important to read the manual to understand how to use it effectively), which is all you need to know in a thermal. Everything else is just distraction. And since it is so simple, it nicely fits in an infobox. I dont think winpilot thermal assistance is available as infobox, and I wouldnt want my flight computer to switch screens for me automatically, or even manually. I like to see the moving map and trace at all times. In fact, the xcsoar thermal assistance is so helpful it almost feels like cheating!

Ramy
  #17  
Old May 29th 15, 07:59 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathan St. Cloud
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Posts: 1,463
Default Info boxes when thermalling?

How about the expensive panel mounted systems like LX NAV 90XX, LX Navigation, Clear Nav, do those have a good thermal optimizer? I would like to think that if you pay $2,000-6,000 for a system it would be much better than an app downloaded to a phone!?
  #18  
Old May 29th 15, 09:07 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 1,134
Default Info boxes when thermalling?

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 11:54:18 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 10:56:52 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 9:38:04 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
I disagree that XCSoar thermaling assistance info box is hopeless. It is in fact working perfectly 90% of the time. Like John, if I stay focus I can do as good or better than the thermal assistance, but if I let myself loose concentration (usually when talking in the radio or focusing on something else) the XCSoar thermal assistance helps me getting back to the core in one circle 9 out of 10 times. The nice thing about it is that it does not replace your moving map, so you can see both your zoomed in circles and the thermal assistance info box at the same one, and have all the information you need.

Ramy


Ramy,

I didn't mean that the XCSoar thermal assistant is hopeless, but hopeless in that circumstance indicating it is not as sophisticated. It is not as good as the Winpilot version in any circumstance, but not hopeless. Most of them work on the same principle, but the tuning and presentation are significantly different. The exception is iGlide, when coupled with the Butterfly vario the principle is quite different: each 1 second lift dot (size and color differ with lift strength) has also an instantaneous wind vector, these tend to pretty reliably point towards the center of the thermal. This is interesting, but requires more attention and interpretation than either Winpilot or XCSoar. Also the others assume the thermal is symmetric about its axis, iGlide does not and will map out a 2 core or asymmetric thermal.



I actually see the simplicity of the XCSoar thermal assistance as advantage. It is totally intuitive and only require a glimpse to know when to level off momentarily (it is important to read the manual to understand how to use it effectively), which is all you need to know in a thermal. Everything else is just distraction. And since it is so simple, it nicely fits in an infobox. I dont think winpilot thermal assistance is available as infobox, and I wouldnt want my flight computer to switch screens for me automatically, or even manually. I like to see the moving map and trace at all times. In fact, the xcsoar thermal assistance is so helpful it almost feels like cheating!

Ramy


Ramy, have you ever used the thermal assistant on (the old) Winpilot?

Jonathan - you might like to think that, but you'd be wrong .
  #19  
Old May 29th 15, 09:15 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Ramy[_2_]
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Posts: 601
Default Info boxes when thermalling?

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 1:07:53 PM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 11:54:18 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 10:56:52 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 9:38:04 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
I disagree that XCSoar thermaling assistance info box is hopeless. It is in fact working perfectly 90% of the time. Like John, if I stay focus I can do as good or better than the thermal assistance, but if I let myself loose concentration (usually when talking in the radio or focusing on something else) the XCSoar thermal assistance helps me getting back to the core in one circle 9 out of 10 times. The nice thing about it is that it does not replace your moving map, so you can see both your zoomed in circles and the thermal assistance info box at the same one, and have all the information you need.

Ramy

Ramy,

I didn't mean that the XCSoar thermal assistant is hopeless, but hopeless in that circumstance indicating it is not as sophisticated. It is not as good as the Winpilot version in any circumstance, but not hopeless. Most of them work on the same principle, but the tuning and presentation are significantly different. The exception is iGlide, when coupled with the Butterfly vario the principle is quite different: each 1 second lift dot (size and color differ with lift strength) has also an instantaneous wind vector, these tend to pretty reliably point towards the center of the thermal. This is interesting, but requires more attention and interpretation than either Winpilot or XCSoar. Also the others assume the thermal is symmetric about its axis, iGlide does not and will map out a 2 core or asymmetric thermal.



I actually see the simplicity of the XCSoar thermal assistance as advantage. It is totally intuitive and only require a glimpse to know when to level off momentarily (it is important to read the manual to understand how to use it effectively), which is all you need to know in a thermal. Everything else is just distraction. And since it is so simple, it nicely fits in an infobox. I dont think winpilot thermal assistance is available as infobox, and I wouldnt want my flight computer to switch screens for me automatically, or even manually. I like to see the moving map and trace at all times. In fact, the xcsoar thermal assistance is so helpful it almost feels like cheating!

Ramy


Ramy, have you ever used the thermal assistant on (the old) Winpilot?

Jonathan - you might like to think that, but you'd be wrong .


John, yes I tried years ago when I used winpilot, but didnt like the fact that it takes over my whole screen. I know it is doing a good job based on feedbacks I heard but I didnt feel the need to have a dedicated screen for centering a thermal, while having an infobox in xcsoar is much less intrusive. You can either glimpse on it or ignore it. Thats the beauty of it.

Ramy
  #20  
Old May 29th 15, 10:02 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Tim Taylor
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Default Info boxes when thermalling?

On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 12:37:29 PM UTC-6, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 10:56:52 AM UTC-7, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, May 29, 2015 at 9:38:04 AM UTC-7, Ramy wrote:
I disagree that XCSoar thermaling assistance info box is hopeless. It is in fact working perfectly 90% of the time. Like John, if I stay focus I can do as good or better than the thermal assistance, but if I let myself loose concentration (usually when talking in the radio or focusing on something else) the XCSoar thermal assistance helps me getting back to the core in one circle 9 out of 10 times. The nice thing about it is that it does not replace your moving map, so you can see both your zoomed in circles and the thermal assistance info box at the same one, and have all the information you need.

Ramy


Ramy,

I didn't mean that the XCSoar thermal assistant is hopeless, but hopeless in that circumstance indicating it is not as sophisticated. It is not as good as the Winpilot version in any circumstance, but not hopeless. Most of them work on the same principle, but the tuning and presentation are significantly different. The exception is iGlide, when coupled with the Butterfly vario the principle is quite different: each 1 second lift dot (size and color differ with lift strength) has also an instantaneous wind vector, these tend to pretty reliably point towards the center of the thermal. This is interesting, but requires more attention and interpretation than either Winpilot or XCSoar. Also the others assume the thermal is symmetric about its axis, iGlide does not and will map out a 2 core or asymmetric thermal.


I was a hard core WinPilot climb maximizer snob, but I finally gave up because of the hardware platforms and general lack of development. SeeYou Mobile used to be terrible, but the latest version has a pretty cool thermal strength breadcrumb display that works quite well and helps tease out thermal shape, multiple cores, etc. It would be nice if it did a better job of graying out the track after 5 or 6 turns or overlaying the newer tracks (for climb maximizer mode separate from navigate mode), but overall I like it a lot better than Naviter's prior efforts. It's also cool that it is just a zoomed in version of the normal moving map display with some additional "move the center this way" guidance (guidance is good, but still not quite as definitive as WinPilot's was). You can use your trace to come back to the location of the core near a turnpoint, etc. It's also a lot better at starting right when you start thermalling - it used to take a turn or so to get going, which was just what you didn't need.

Andy
9B


I agree with Andy. I loved the Winpilot climb maximizer. It came on when you needed it and was very easy to use. I miss the line graph of thermal strength over time. I do not know why none of the others have provided this feature as an option.

I liked the full screen with the diagram and the chart. It did have a quick switch button for the iPAQ that allowed you to toggle the other screen quickly if you wanted to. I guess I tend to be focused on optimizing the climb when I am climbing and don't need to see the other maps all the time.

SeeYou Mobile is better than it was but still does not start and stop when it should. The bubbles do not give as good of resolution as WP did in the graphic mode and I would like to have the average climb rate versus time graph. SYM is about a 6 out of 10 now but WP was a 10/10. Hopefully they will continue to improve it and add the additional graphic as an option.

Tim
TT
 




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