Report Leaving Assigned Altitude?

1) "N7NZ, cleared direct BMQ cruise 7000". Do I report subsequent descents?
E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"? Then later "leaving 5000 descending
2000"?

2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I report
Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this
frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will,
right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000?

3) I'm level at 7000. "N7NZ, descend 3000 pilots discretion". Do I report
my descent? Can I level off at an intermediate altitude, and if so, do I
eventually report leaving that altitude?E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"?
Then later "leaving 5000 descending 3000"?

Please read the above "do I" as "am I required to". In my (small) IFR
experience to this point I have made the reports in many/all the above
cases, so I'm now trying to confirm which of them are unnecessary...

Thanks!
John Clonts
Temple, Texas
N7NZ

John Clonts wrote:
1) "N7NZ, cleared direct BMQ cruise 7000". Do I report subsequent descents?
E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"? Then later "leaving 5000 descending
2000"?

Report leaving 7000, assuming that was an assigned altitude. 5000 was never
assigned, so there's no need to report leaving it.


2) Its VMC and I'm IFR to Temple, level at 5000. At 25 miles out I report
Temple in sight. "N7NZ cleared visual approach to Temple, remain this
frequency til you're closer in". At this point I may descend at will,
right? When I do decide to descend, do I report leaving 5000?

Assuming 5000 was an assigned altitude, yes.


3) I'm level at 7000. "N7NZ, descend 3000 pilots discretion". Do I report
my descent? Can I level off at an intermediate altitude, and if so, do I
eventually report leaving that altitude?E.g. "leaving 7000 descending 5000"?
Then later "leaving 5000 descending 3000"?

Report leaving 7000, assuming it was an assigned altitude. You have discretion
to 3000, so you may stop at an intermediate altitude. No need to report leaving
altitudes that weren't assigned.


Please read the above "do I" as "am I required to". In my (small) IFR
experience to this point I have made the reports in many/all the above
cases, so I'm now trying to confirm which of them are unnecessary...

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...

Assuming 5000 was an assigned altitude, yes.

"Cleared for the visual" supercedes any prior altitude assignment. No
report is required when you begin your descent.

Report leaving 7000, assuming it was an assigned altitude.

All you must do is acknowledge the clearance to descend at pilot discretion
to 3000. After that, there is no requirement to report when you choose to
use that discretion to leave 7000.



--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

----------------
AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a
specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a newly
assigned altitude or flight level.
....
----------------

Richard, please explain why the citation above does not apply (assuming the
O.P.'s starting altitudes were "assigned").

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment is
superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".

Thanks

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
[sorry for top-posting]


Richard Kaplan wrote:
"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...


Assuming 5000 was an assigned altitude, yes.


"Cleared for the visual" supercedes any prior altitude assignment. No
report is required when you begin your descent.


Report leaving 7000, assuming it was an assigned altitude.


All you must do is acknowledge the clearance to descend at pilot discretion
to 3000. After that, there is no requirement to report when you choose to
use that discretion to leave 7000.

--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com
"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...
----------------
AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without a
specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a
newly
assigned altitude or flight level.
...
----------------

Richard, please explain why the citation above does not apply (assuming
the
O.P.'s starting altitudes were "assigned").

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment is
superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".

Thanks

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.
[sorry for top-posting]


Richard Kaplan wrote:
"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...


Assuming 5000 was an assigned altitude, yes.


"Cleared for the visual" supercedes any prior altitude assignment. No
report is required when you begin your descent.


Report leaving 7000, assuming it was an assigned altitude.


All you must do is acknowledge the clearance to descend at pilot
discretion
to 3000. After that, there is no requirement to report when you choose
to
use that discretion to leave 7000.

"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a
newly
assigned altitude or flight level.

I agree this is an interesting question and raises an area of some
ambiguity.

However, my interpretation in all the cases discussed in this thread is that
an intermediate altitude is not an assigned altitude and an approach
clearance certainly is not an assigned altitude.

In other words, I interpret the above AIM section to require the pilot to
provide a readbak of any altitude change. That readback might be "N102KY
out of 5000 for 3000" or it might be "N102KY out of 5000 for 3000 pilot
discretion" or it might be "N102KY will cruise 3000" -- any of these in my
opinion satisfy the AIM requirement.

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment is
superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".

Take the somewhat more extreme example of a DME step-down approach. Surely
you will agree that there is no need to report to ATC each time you proceed
to a new step-down altitude. Why not? Beause these step-down altitudes
were not "assigned" by ATC; you were instead "cleared for the approach"
which is approval to descend as published on the approach plate without any
further discussion with ATC. "Cleared for the visual" is just another
extension of this underlying theme -- you may descend at will upon being
"Cleared for the visual" as long as you do not violate another FAA rule in
the process such as minimum altitude requirements.



--
Richard Kaplan, CFII

www.flyimc.com

Richard Kaplan wrote:
"Dave Butler" wrote in message
...


(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a

newly

assigned altitude or flight level.


I agree this is an interesting question and raises an area of some
ambiguity.

I think the ambiguity is whether a visual approach (for example) is a "newly
assigned altitude".


However, my interpretation in all the cases discussed in this thread is that
an intermediate altitude is not an assigned altitude and an approach
clearance certainly is not an assigned altitude.

I agree completely about intermediate altitudes. With respece to approach
clearances, I wouldn't say "certainly", but I'll give you that.


In other words, I interpret the above AIM section to require the pilot to
provide a readbak of any altitude change. That readback might be "N102KY
out of 5000 for 3000" or it might be "N102KY out of 5000 for 3000 pilot
discretion" or it might be "N102KY will cruise 3000" -- any of these in my
opinion satisfy the AIM requirement.

I disagree about "out of 5000 for 3000 pilot discretion". I think that readback
merely acknowledges the clearance and does not provide any information about
when I might exercise my discretion to actually leave that altitude. When I
leave the altitude, perhaps minutes later, I assert that a seperate report is
required.



The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment is
superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".


Take the somewhat more extreme example of a DME step-down approach. Surely
you will agree that there is no need to report to ATC each time you proceed
to a new step-down altitude. Why not? Beause these step-down altitudes
were not "assigned" by ATC; you were instead "cleared for the approach"

I agree the step downs are not assigned altitudes and never asserted anything
different.

which is approval to descend as published on the approach plate without any
further discussion with ATC. "Cleared for the visual" is just another
extension of this underlying theme -- you may descend at will upon being
"Cleared for the visual" as long as you do not violate another FAA rule in
the process such as minimum altitude requirements.

I think the question of whether a report is required hinges on whether a
clearance for a visual approach is a "newly assigned altitude". I don't think
it's clear cut, but I see the rationale for your interpretation.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.

I agree this is an interesting question and raises an area of some
ambiguity.

Regardless of what the AIM says, the important question is what ATC
uses these reports for.

Controllers in the past have said that under some circumstances, they
can use the pilot's report of leaving an altitude for separation
purposes.

However, a PD descent isn't one of them. Controllers have said that
they cannot use a pilot's report of leaving an altitude on a PD
descent/climb and therefore the reportis not useful. (However,
according to the .65, this isn't true in a NON-radar environment.)

Perhaps the visual approach and cruise clearance fall into the same
category?

Dave Butler wrote:
----------------
AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities without
a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for a
newly assigned altitude or flight level.
...
----------------

Richard, please explain why the citation above does not apply (assuming
the O.P.'s starting altitudes were "assigned").

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment is
superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".

It doesn't have to say that as it would be redundant. There is no way
to fly the visual approach clearance without descending! So, once you
are cleared for the visual, you are cleared to descend and turn as
required to execute the approach.


Matt

Matthew S. Whiting wrote:
Dave Butler wrote:

----------------
AIM 5-3-3. Additional Reports

a. The following reports should be made to ATC or FSS facilities
without a specific ATC request:

1. At all times.

(a) When vacating any previously assigned altitude or flight level for
a newly assigned altitude or flight level.
...
----------------

Richard, please explain why the citation above does not apply
(assuming the O.P.'s starting altitudes were "assigned").

The AIM doesn't say (for example) "...unless the altitude assignment
is superceded by a clearance for a visual approach".


It doesn't have to say that as it would be redundant. There is no way
to fly the visual approach clearance without descending! So, once you
are cleared for the visual, you are cleared to descend and turn as
required to execute the approach.

I'm not saying you can't descend when cleared for the visual (please read what I
wrote). I'm saying if you're at-an-assigned-altitude and cleared for the visual,
you have to report, since you're "vacating a previously assigned altitude".

My phraseology would be "spamcan 33333 cleared for the visual approach", then
when I (later) start the descent, "spamcan 33333 leaving 5000".

I'll concede that there is some ambiguity about whether the visual approach is a
"newly assigned altitude". I guess you could also argue that in the above
example 5000 is no longer an assigned altitude. Is that what you are saying? OK.

Dave
Remove SHIRT to reply directly.