In wave, in blue hole at cloud level, hole closes, in IMC, then what?

On 4/8/2015 1:00 PM, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:

Good stuff snipped...
In climbing we always said plan for the worse, hope for the best. Training,
training. Maybe one of the experienced legends of the sport can comment
here and add guidance.

One more thought. In the war bird community we had hangar flying sessions
where we talked about the emergencies we experienced and how we handled
them. These were priceless sessions! I learned what other pilots did in
situations I had never thought of. Maybe we should start a hangar flying
session on this site!


From the numerous-n-rapidly-arriving comments related to Bob Spielman's
IMC-related bailout, I'd guess the situation hits close to home for many
thoughtful gliderpilots...

I'll second the idea of Real Worth being found in hangar flying sessions, even
if only the unvoiced thought, "You gotta be kidding!" Thanks to everyone who's
shared so far!

Bob W.

At 19:48 08 April 2015, Darryl Ramm wrote:
On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 12:33:10 PM UTC-7, Matt Herron Jr. wrote:
any possibility to maintain a heading using the moving map while in the
c=
louds to prevent the start of a spiral dive?

And as you slow down in strong wave you can start flying
sideways/backwards=
and the moving map or fake instrument it is driving "topples". If you
want=
to rely on instruments, they need to be real inertial instrument (and
lots=
of training/practice) in an environment like that.

The near-VNE speed that Ramy described is the eater of gliders in this
scen=
ario in strong Wave.

I Accept dirty as a good idea because the shorter the time in cloud the
less
chance of messing it up.
But is it worth deploying the turbo but not starting it ,because with the
brakes out and gear down and turbo up the drag will be enormous,it may
even to keep you below VNE.
However you would want to know what the spin characteristics are in that
configuration.
Any thoughts?
Jon

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 5:00:06 PM UTC-4, Jonathon May wrote:

But is it worth deploying the turbo but not starting it ,because with the
brakes out and gear down and turbo up the drag will be enormous,it may
even to keep you below VNE.
However you would want to know what the spin characteristics are in that
configuration.
Any thoughts?
Jon

What does the maker of your plane say about doing aerobatics (a spin for instance) with the engine boom deployed? The centrifugal force about the axis of the fuselage might be a factor.

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 1:30:23 PM UTC-7, Bob Whelan wrote:
On 4/8/2015 1:28 PM, Tango Eight wrote:
Snip...

T8's hot tip for partial panel descents: get the glider dirty (i.e.
spoilers, flaps, gear). It's about 1000x easier to fly a dirty glider on
instruments than a clean one.

I lack the experience to express an informed opinion about that
paragraph-ending statement (though I'd wager a 6-pack it's correct), but will
readily second the idea of adding all the disposable drag your glider has as
being a Great Idea if/when things get visually dodgy. It's hard to get more
stable than a glider with so much drag it can't do anything but slowly and
stably fall to earth like a featherweight shuttlecock, regardless of what Joe
Pilot might attempt with the stick.

Short list of gliders which qualify follows:

Bob W.

P.S. For any offended HP drivers out there, please note I qualified things
with "slowly and *stably* fall to earth...". My HP 14 fell to earth quite
slowly and UNstably with full flaps and no hands/feet on the controls, and
never exceeded ~50 knots regardless of any of the "unusual attitudes" it found
while bouncing between the tail-high/nose-low state and "various sideways
states" as it alternated between stalled with full flaps and not stalled with
full flaps. To avoid stalling, one merely had to hold sufficient forward stick
to maintain 40 knots or so. Quite instructive...

It was probably emphasized elsewhere already in this thread, but worth emphasizing again, that many gliders have speed limits for positive flaps. In a 27 at VNE you can only be on negative flap. Not even neutral flap 3 (which I find it odd). So you really need to maintain relatively slow speed to fly really dirty in those gliders, especially with landing flaps.

Ramy

I wanted to mention that, unlike the other V speeds, Vne is *true* airspeed, not indicated, and the corresponding indicated airspeed goes down as altitude increases. The red-line on the ASI is Vne for sea-level. A high-altitude flier might memorize or have handy the values for Vne at 10 and 15 thousand, and FL200, and FL250.

also, I just read the report:

Burruel said all aircraft's have airframe limitations and if you exceed those limits, especially in severe weather, an airplane accident like Sundays in downtown Reno is possible. "Every airplane has what's called a turbulence penetration airspeed and that's a speed that you always want to stay under if you anticipate any turbulence and then every airframe has a maximum airspeed as well, which under any circumstances you don't want to exceed that speed."


Its also worth mentioning that Vne is not based on load factor, like Va, but on flutter, which is why its True and not Indicated.

A word of caution regarding benign spiral dives. I have tried to establish a benign spiral set up in all my gliders, beginning with a ASW 20 and including; Nimbus 3, ASH 25, Std Cirrus, Ventus 2A, Pegasus, and most recently Std Libelle. I have been able to find a combination of flap, spoiler, and trim that will result in a benign spiral in all of them in when starting from a fairly normal attitude and in reasonably calm air. In almost every case if I attempted the manuever in moderate or sever turbulence or when in an steep turn, or from an unusual attitude the result was anything but benign. So please try it in adverse conditions, with you glider ,before attempting to descend thru an undercast or in cloud. I have Butterfly AH's in my ASH and am putting an LX S80 in my libelle, That plus practice is the best way to keep the wings on when in turbulence in clouds.

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 7:08:36 AM UTC-7, son_of_flubber wrote:
So I'm flying in a blue hole in wave lift of 5 m/s, trimmed to 50 knots, in clear air with a cloud layer upwind and downwind, cloud top above and cloud base below. Suddenly I find myself in IMC. What are my options?

My glider is capable of benign spiral. I open the spoilers, (already trimmed to 50 knots) and let go of stick and rudder. Then I mentally rehearse my bail out procedure and expect to come out below the cloud (or possibly above). It seems like I should decisively and without hesitation initiate the spiral ASAP, while the glider is still relatively level and at cruising airspeed.

Suggestions?

It's never happened to me but I would probably attempt to revert back to IFR basics - needle, ball, and A/S. Opps, don't have a ball but ya got the yarn. If you keep the yarn centered, the compass heading steady, pull spoilers and trim for a 50kt descent, you have a pretty good chance until your pitot tube iced up. Of course in turbulence you might have your hands full.

On Wednesday, April 8, 2015 at 8:08:36 AM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
So I'm flying in a blue hole in wave lift of 5 m/s, trimmed to 50 knots, in clear air with a cloud layer upwind and downwind, cloud top above and cloud base below. Suddenly I find myself in IMC. What are my options?

My glider is capable of benign spiral. I open the spoilers, (already trimmed to 50 knots) and let go of stick and rudder. Then I mentally rehearse my bail out procedure and expect to come out below the cloud (or possibly above). It seems like I should decisively and without hesitation initiate the spiral ASAP, while the glider is still relatively level and at cruising airspeed.

Suggestions?

I think this is a question only a glider pilot would ask. Students seeking an airplane rating will experience several hours of instrument flight training so they'll know the answer.

The correct question to ask is not what to do after one "finds themselves" in IMC, but what can they do BEFORE it happens. The answer for glider pilots is to find a good CFII and spend hours under the hood in an airplane.

The experience will very likely do one of two things - both good. One is to create an absolute determination never to get "caught" in IMC. The other is to see the need for more IFR training or even an instrument rating.

At least a pilot will know the size of the dragon before is before tweaking its tail.

Well, this is based on the assumption that training is the answer for everything. It may be the answer for inexperience pilots. The two pilots who bailed out over Reno in the last decade where both extremely experienced ATP/ex military pilots with tons of IFR experience. Sometimes **** just happens.. This falls under the 99.9% safe rule. The 0.1% sucks when it happens. Luckily it ended well.

Ramy