Needed: Inexpensive AHRS module to work with Oudie, XCsoar, LK8000, etc...

Really??!!!
You enter a cloud and then your are going to fumble for your i-Phone?
Or, you enter a cloud and start losing control of your aircraft...then you are going to be able to control your i-phone with a touchpad while G-forces are tossing you about??
You need to really think about this.

I think the OP is on the right track. If you aren't flying with one of those varios-with-extra-bells-and-whistles that turns into an artificial horizon at the flip of a switch, why not have SOMETHING for emergency use in cloud? Especially if you are already flying with a tablet display anyway, for other purposes? In another thread I made one suggestion, but a full-fledged artificial horizon display is a better way to go, so long as it works reliably. Such a display can be displayed on tablet or whatever and driven by a commercially available AHRS sensor unit. Those units are widely available, as a bit a googling will reveal. Here's one link among many: http://www.aviation.levil.com/products.html .

Of course it goes WITHOUT SAYING that your tablet or cell phone or whatever is going to be rigidly mounted in your cockpit. You certainly don't want to be trying to look at a moving object as you try to control your aircraft in cloud. And it also goes without saying that all of this is for emergency use only.

Me personally-- I still like the simple, completely self-contained nature of the piezoelectric turn rate indicator I linked to earlier, at the top of the related thread "Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters". I don't want to worry about all this other stuff. And I've practiced enough to know how to make use of the simpler instrument. And as noted elsewhere, the TruTrac is essentially the same thing, just a better implementation and a lot more bucks. But if you were to hand me a tablet running an artificial horizon display, AHRS system, appropriate mounts, fully charged batteries, etc, all ready go, I'd take them and say "thanks"-- especially if the ground were nowhere to be seen!

S

On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 8:32:13 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
Am I missing something?

Yes. You (and a few others) are missing (intentionally or not, I don't know) that VFR into IMC in soaring flight is ***100% avoidable***.

The guy that gets swallowed by cloud or found himself above a solid overcast has either failed to learn the meteorology appropriate to the conditions he's flying in or willfully chosen to continue flying despite the signs of developing hazards. That goes for rapidly descending cloudbase associated with storms as well as all the things that can go wrong in wave systems. Yeah, I've been swallowed by cloud. Yes, I had plenty of warning (clouds were forming and dissipating all over, the risk was 100% obvious) although the actual event (lennie formation) was astoundingly sudden.

Blind flying instruments and piloting skills extend a modicum of emergency capability to those who willfully or ignorantly venture into very avoidable conditions where the prospect of forced IMC is real. If your primary objective is safety, then you forgo the adventure, perhaps even deal with the inconvenience of a landing away from your intended destination to avoid developing hazards. If instead you want to twist the dragon's tail a little, then by all means arm up -- but arm up on the most important stuff first (that would be meteorology), have a plan for when things go bad (gyros and know how to use them) and please don't think of yourself as a victim of anything other than your own judgement when mother nature treats you roughly.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Essentially all we're talking about doing here, is replicating the AHRS-based artificial horizon displays that are currently incorporated into the top-of-the-line variometer sytems.

S

WOW! Very well said, Evan.

On 4/28/2015 9:09 AM, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 8:32:13 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
Am I missing something?
Yes. You (and a few others) are missing (intentionally or not, I don't know) that VFR into IMC in soaring flight is ***100% avoidable***.

The guy that gets swallowed by cloud or found himself above a solid overcast has either failed to learn the meteorology appropriate to the conditions he's flying in or willfully chosen to continue flying despite the signs of developing hazards. That goes for rapidly descending cloudbase associated with storms as well as all the things that can go wrong in wave systems. Yeah, I've been swallowed by cloud. Yes, I had plenty of warning (clouds were forming and dissipating all over, the risk was 100% obvious) although the actual event (lennie formation) was astoundingly sudden.

Blind flying instruments and piloting skills extend a modicum of emergency capability to those who willfully or ignorantly venture into very avoidable conditions where the prospect of forced IMC is real. If your primary objective is safety, then you forgo the adventure, perhaps even deal with the inconvenience of a landing away from your intended destination to avoid developing hazards. If instead you want to twist the dragon's tail a little, then by all means arm up -- but arm up on the most important stuff first (that would be meteorology), have a plan for when things go bad (gyros and know how to use them) and please don't think of yourself as a victim of anything other than your own judgement when mother nature treats you roughly.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

--
Dan Marotta

On 4/28/2015 9:52 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
WOW! Very well said, Evan.

+2

Bob W.
- - - - - -

On 4/28/2015 9:09 AM, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 8:32:13 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
Am I missing something?
Yes. You (and a few others) are missing (intentionally or not, I don't
know) that VFR into IMC in soaring flight is ***100% avoidable***.

The guy that gets swallowed by cloud or found himself above a solid
overcast has either failed to learn the meteorology appropriate to the
conditions he's flying in or willfully chosen to continue flying despite
the signs of developing hazards. That goes for rapidly descending
cloudbase associated with storms as well as all the things that can go
wrong in wave systems. Yeah, I've been swallowed by cloud. Yes, I had
plenty of warning (clouds were forming and dissipating all over, the risk
was 100% obvious) although the actual event (lennie formation) was
astoundingly sudden.

Blind flying instruments and piloting skills extend a modicum of
emergency capability to those who willfully or ignorantly venture into
very avoidable conditions where the prospect of forced IMC is real. If
your primary objective is safety, then you forgo the adventure, perhaps
even deal with the inconvenience of a landing away from your intended
destination to avoid developing hazards. If instead you want to twist
the dragon's tail a little, then by all means arm up -- but arm up on the
most important stuff first (that would be meteorology), have a plan for
when things go bad (gyros and know how to use them) and please don't
think of yourself as a victim of anything other than your own judgement
when mother nature treats you roughly.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

-- Dan Marotta

On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 10:09:46 AM UTC-5, Tango Eight wrote:
On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 8:32:13 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
Am I missing something?

Yes. You (and a few others) are missing (intentionally or not, I don't know) that VFR into IMC in soaring flight is ***100% avoidable***.

The guy that gets swallowed by cloud or found himself above a solid overcast has either failed to learn the meteorology appropriate to the conditions he's flying in or willfully chosen to continue flying despite the signs of developing hazards. That goes for rapidly descending cloudbase associated with storms as well as all the things that can go wrong in wave systems. Yeah, I've been swallowed by cloud. Yes, I had plenty of warning (clouds were forming and dissipating all over, the risk was 100% obvious) although the actual event (lennie formation) was astoundingly sudden.

Blind flying instruments and piloting skills extend a modicum of emergency capability to those who willfully or ignorantly venture into very avoidable conditions where the prospect of forced IMC is real. If your primary objective is safety, then you forgo the adventure, perhaps even deal with the inconvenience of a landing away from your intended destination to avoid developing hazards. If instead you want to twist the dragon's tail a little, then by all means arm up -- but arm up on the most important stuff first (that would be meteorology), have a plan for when things go bad (gyros and know how to use them) and please don't think of yourself as a victim of anything other than your own judgement when mother nature treats you roughly.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

Mostly agree. Twisting the dragon's tail (flying too close to cloudbase, in a wet wave with clouds below, etc.) can get you eaten big time.

But so can a really hazy day, when the horizon slowly disappears...sort of a "boiling a frog" scenario.

100%? To me, that would imply never taking off, and just watching cat videos on Youtube...

But yeah, it all boils down to airmanship, knowing your environment, and preparing for what you may encounter.

Kirk
66

On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 10:31:44 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
All the recent threads on the danger of inadvertent VMC into IMC flight without proper instrumentation has highlighted what I think is a needed bit of kit for the modern glider (i.e. one that has some sort of PDA/PNA/nav display in it's cockpit: An inexpensive stand-alone AHRS module that would output continuous attitude information (pitch, roll, yaw, turn rate) which could be used by programs such as SeeYouMobile, XCsoar, and LK8000 to provide an instant-on useable attitude display, for those rare but dangerous times that a glider inadvertently gets stuck IMC (or for the Brits, when they want to do it!).

I'm thinking a nice BIG attitude screen showing pitch and roll, with a turnrate "needle/ball" at the bottom, and if possible, showing other data that the display device/software would know from other sources: airspeed, altitude, basic GPS nav info.

I would start with a basic AHRS MEMS module, add a small rechargeable battery to provide backup if the ownship power fails, and output the attitude data in NMEA via usb to the display device. Price point would be around $500 or less, and of course the software providers would need to integrate it.

We already spend a lot for FLARM, to cover a threat that is also relatively remote (mid-air collision). But not all of us want to drop the big bucks (or euros) for a Butterfly or S80 - and the price of stand-alone AHRS modules seems pretty low.

And at the risk of restarting the RAS-war about attitude indicators in contests, well, I think the cat is already out of the bag on that issue - but having the device add an "attitude on" or whatever flag on the logger trace should be sufficient, IMO.

Anyway, just thinking...

And if this already exists - please send me a link!

Kirk
66



On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 10:31:44 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
All the recent threads on the danger of inadvertent VMC into IMC flight without proper instrumentation has highlighted what I think is a needed bit of kit for the modern glider (i.e. one that has some sort of PDA/PNA/nav display in it's cockpit: An inexpensive stand-alone AHRS module that would output continuous attitude information (pitch, roll, yaw, turn rate) which could be used by programs such as SeeYouMobile, XCsoar, and LK8000 to provide an instant-on useable attitude display, for those rare but dangerous times that a glider inadvertently gets stuck IMC (or for the Brits, when they want to do it!).

I'm thinking a nice BIG attitude screen showing pitch and roll, with a turnrate "needle/ball" at the bottom, and if possible, showing other data that the display device/software would know from other sources: airspeed, altitude, basic GPS nav info.

I would start with a basic AHRS MEMS module, add a small rechargeable battery to provide backup if the ownship power fails, and output the attitude data in NMEA via usb to the display device. Price point would be around $500 or less, and of course the software providers would need to integrate it.

We already spend a lot for FLARM, to cover a threat that is also relatively remote (mid-air collision). But not all of us want to drop the big bucks (or euros) for a Butterfly or S80 - and the price of stand-alone AHRS modules seems pretty low.

And at the risk of restarting the RAS-war about attitude indicators in contests, well, I think the cat is already out of the bag on that issue - but having the device add an "attitude on" or whatever flag on the logger trace should be sufficient, IMO.

Anyway, just thinking...

And if this already exists - please send me a link!

Kirk
66



On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 10:31:44 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
All the recent threads on the danger of inadvertent VMC into IMC flight without proper instrumentation has highlighted what I think is a needed bit of kit for the modern glider (i.e. one that has some sort of PDA/PNA/nav display in it's cockpit: An inexpensive stand-alone AHRS module that would output continuous attitude information (pitch, roll, yaw, turn rate) which could be used by programs such as SeeYouMobile, XCsoar, and LK8000 to provide an instant-on useable attitude display, for those rare but dangerous times that a glider inadvertently gets stuck IMC (or for the Brits, when they want to do it!).

I'm thinking a nice BIG attitude screen showing pitch and roll, with a turnrate "needle/ball" at the bottom, and if possible, showing other data that the display device/software would know from other sources: airspeed, altitude, basic GPS nav info.

I would start with a basic AHRS MEMS module, add a small rechargeable battery to provide backup if the ownship power fails, and output the attitude data in NMEA via usb to the display device. Price point would be around $500 or less, and of course the software providers would need to integrate it.

We already spend a lot for FLARM, to cover a threat that is also relatively remote (mid-air collision). But not all of us want to drop the big bucks (or euros) for a Butterfly or S80 - and the price of stand-alone AHRS modules seems pretty low.

And at the risk of restarting the RAS-war about attitude indicators in contests, well, I think the cat is already out of the bag on that issue - but having the device add an "attitude on" or whatever flag on the logger trace should be sufficient, IMO.

Anyway, just thinking...

And if this already exists - please send me a link!

Kirk
66
Hi Kirk
Part of the LK8000 software is a page, with artificial horizon, digital values for track, ground speed vario, A/S etc. It is functional on the PNA that I have it installed on, and it is inexpensive.
Rob Frith

On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 2:10:41 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 27, 2015 at 10:31:44 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:
All the recent threads on the danger of inadvertent VMC into IMC flight without proper instrumentation has highlighted what I think is a needed bit of kit for the modern glider (i.e. one that has some sort of PDA/PNA/nav display in it's cockpit: An inexpensive stand-alone AHRS module that would output continuous attitude information (pitch, roll, yaw, turn rate) which could be used by programs such as SeeYouMobile, XCsoar, and LK8000 to provide an instant-on useable attitude display, for those rare but dangerous times that a glider inadvertently gets stuck IMC (or for the Brits, when they want to do it!).

I'm thinking a nice BIG attitude screen showing pitch and roll, with a turnrate "needle/ball" at the bottom, and if possible, showing other data that the display device/software would know from other sources: airspeed, altitude, basic GPS nav info.

I would start with a basic AHRS MEMS module, add a small rechargeable battery to provide backup if the ownship power fails, and output the attitude data in NMEA via usb to the display device. Price point would be around $500 or less, and of course the software providers would need to integrate it.

If you think that a solid state...always on...artificial horizon system is less stable and dependable than a vacuum driven gyro system, or electrically driven gyro system, or mechanical system...we are in different solar systems.

I have flown many artificial horizon systems. The new digital...always on....fully electronic systems are awesome.

Get real. Understand that when you get sucked into the soup that you need accurate information that is instantly understandable, right now.

With the LX Nav S80 system (or Butterfly vario system) you are never more than two button pushes away from an instantly understandable and fully up to speed display that, if you understand it, will save your sorry ass.

Take your alternative systems into a dual aircraft and put some real blinders on and see how you do. You cannot accurately touch virtual buttons on your smartphones while tumbling inside a cloud. You cannot wait for a system to boot from a cold start. Your rational mind will not be working when you try to understand how a compass, ASI, and bubble need to be responded to when you have not practiced this over and over and over.