Needed: Inexpensive AHRS module to work with Oudie, XCsoar, LK8000, etc...

On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 8:54:14 PM UTC-7, wrote:

Take your alternative systems into a dual aircraft and put some real blinders on and see how you do.

Check

You cannot accurately touch virtual buttons on your smartphones while tumbling inside a cloud.

Check

You cannot wait for a system to boot from a cold start.

Check

Your rational mind will not be working when you try to understand how a compass, ASI, and bubble need to be responded to when you have not practiced this over and over and over.

Bubble tells you nothing that yaw string doesn't (unless yaw string is frozen.) These three things are indeed enough under certain very exceptional circumstances (involving smooth air and freedom to choose heading according to what works with the compass, rather than terrain.) In most real-world circumstances you need much more. If wind is in same ballpark as airspeed, that "something else" had better not be a simple GPS-based map display or "heading" indicator or GPS-derived "bank angle" indicator. An ARHS-based artificial horizon display is great, running on vario or on some sort of RELIABLE, hard-mounted tablet etc. I'm having trouble believing the reliability is really there with most cobbled-together systems, but don't know that much about it. I noted another option on related thread "Emergency instrumentation for cloud encounters": http://store-vllhq23n.mybigcommerce....-in-enclosure/ . Same basic concept as TruTrac which is another option. Either of these is an instant-on or rapid-on piezoelectric turn rate sensor.

S

It's $1,095 instead of the $500 mentioned at the start, but Dynon has a very good answer: http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/PocketPanel.html. It's self contained from a company that has specialized in EFIS technology for years, not someone that lately has tried to add the capability to their devices.. It also has Bluetooth out so it can be connect to a phone or ipad app.

I've been using a Dynon D10A for IFR flying in my HP for the last 4 years. It's a full panel mounted EFIS. I've been very happy with it.

Charlie

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 5:32:08 AM UTC-5, wrote:
It's $1,095 instead of the $500 mentioned at the start, but Dynon has a very good answer: http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/PocketPanel.html. It's self contained from a company that has specialized in EFIS technology for years, not someone that lately has tried to add the capability to their devices. It also has Bluetooth out so it can be connect to a phone or ipad app.

I've been using a Dynon D10A for IFR flying in my HP for the last 4 years.. It's a full panel mounted EFIS. I've been very happy with it.

Charlie

Thanks Charlie,
The Dynon seems to be good for much more than once-in-a-blue-moon flight into IMC. I would gladly throw out my altimeter, ASI and compass for this compact device. Can we do that in Experimental certified gliders? All you would need in a modern glider is: EFIS, vario, flight computer, radio, transponder and PFlarm, right? Still a lot of stuff but it's progress.
Herb

Le mercredi 29 avril 2015 15:41:11 UTC+2, a écrit*:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 5:32:08 AM UTC-5, wrote:
It's $1,095 instead of the $500 mentioned at the start, but Dynon has a very good answer: http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/PocketPanel.html. It's self contained from a company that has specialized in EFIS technology for years, not someone that lately has tried to add the capability to their devices. It also has Bluetooth out so it can be connect to a phone or ipad app..

I've been using a Dynon D10A for IFR flying in my HP for the last 4 years. It's a full panel mounted EFIS. I've been very happy with it.

Charlie

Thanks Charlie,
The Dynon seems to be good for much more than once-in-a-blue-moon flight into IMC. I would gladly throw out my altimeter, ASI and compass for this compact device. Can we do that in Experimental certified gliders? All you would need in a modern glider is: EFIS, vario, flight computer, radio, transponder and PFlarm, right? Still a lot of stuff but it's progress.
Herb

Until the main fuse blows.

Bert
TW

Check your flight manual for what you need.

I'm not suggesting that electronic instruments would not be acceptable,
just that you must have the specified instruments/functionality. BTW,
none of the items you mentioned are, to my knowledge, required - at
least not in my experimental LAK-17a.

Cheers!

On 4/29/2015 7:41 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 5:32:08 AM UTC-5, wrote:
It's $1,095 instead of the $500 mentioned at the start, but Dynon has a very good answer: http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/PocketPanel.html. It's self contained from a company that has specialized in EFIS technology for years, not someone that lately has tried to add the capability to their devices. It also has Bluetooth out so it can be connect to a phone or ipad app.

I've been using a Dynon D10A for IFR flying in my HP for the last 4 years. It's a full panel mounted EFIS. I've been very happy with it.

Charlie
Thanks Charlie,
The Dynon seems to be good for much more than once-in-a-blue-moon flight into IMC. I would gladly throw out my altimeter, ASI and compass for this compact device. Can we do that in Experimental certified gliders? All you would need in a modern glider is: EFIS, vario, flight computer, radio, transponder and PFlarm, right? Still a lot of stuff but it's progress.
Herb

--
Dan Marotta

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 6:32:08 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Dynon has a very good answer: http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/PocketPanel.html.

To meet Kirk's request for integration with moving map...
The D2 integrates wirelessly with several 3rd party apps so a programming API exists. Whether Dynon would make the API available to glider App developers (like the XCSoar team) is unknown.

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 10:15:51 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
Until the main fuse blows.

The Dynon allows you to tie into the main DC supply, but it also contains an internal battery with 4-6 hours of juice. I suspect that there is a fail over mechanism.

The Stratus2 AHRS https://www.foreflight.com/products/stratus/ requires an 'Ipad' but it also offers Synthetic Vision and ADS weather (not offered on the D2.

On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 8:19:03 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

This is scary to say the least. Even if your unit works most of the time there is always a possibility of a software defect and ultimately freezing of the device. The more I am reading this thread the more I am scared to share airspace with some of you! Who knows what other ideas you might have...

Regards, AK

Andrzej, what specifically do you find scary? Having a backup attitude indicator available for the (hopefully rare) possibility that you find yourself IMC? That is already being incorporated in the new top-of-the line (read: expensive) varios, so why not have the same technology available at an affordable price for all the gliders that already have a big glass display in their cockpit?

As far as reliablity, I would trust any electronic solution more than a mechanical gyro! Especially in a glider, getting banged around while being trailered, etc.

As far as using any turn & bank type of indicator, really? Unless you are instrument rated and/or practice a lot (like the Brits, apparently), I doubt if the average US glider pilot could learn to maintain attitude in a cloud via needle, ball, and airspeed on his first attempt for real! With a big attitude display, I would expect the chances would be a lot higher.

Remember, I'm talking about an EMERGENCY setup here, since for most of us in the US cloud flying is not a practical thing to do. So I don't care if it's not TSO'd. But all the bits and pieces are already out there, it just would be nice if they were combined in a way that would be useful to us.

We wear parachutes that we hope never to use, install flarm to prevent the midair we hope to avoid. I'd like an emergency attitude source to avoid the spiral dive I never plan to get into!

Cheers,

Kirk

(And if you are wondering, yes I do have experience in hard IMC, know what vertigo feels like, and have flown needle-ball-airspeed and glass cockpits, to include HUDs.)

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:48:12 AM UTC-5, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 6:32:08 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Dynon has a very good answer: http://www.dynonavionics.com/docs/PocketPanel.html.

To meet Kirk's request for integration with moving map...
The D2 integrates wirelessly with several 3rd party apps so a programming API exists. Whether Dynon would make the API available to glider App developers (like the XCSoar team) is unknown.

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 10:15:51 AM UTC-4, Tango Whisky wrote:
Until the main fuse blows.

The Dynon allows you to tie into the main DC supply, but it also contains an internal battery with 4-6 hours of juice. I suspect that there is a fail over mechanism.

The Stratus2 AHRS https://www.foreflight.com/products/stratus/ requires an 'Ipad' but it also offers Synthetic Vision and ADS weather (not offered on the D2.

The Dynon is nice (I've flown one in a friends Mooney), but remember that the speed is GPS based; in a wave situation that could get interesting! If I flew wave and wanted a full time AI it would be high on my list. The Stratus is real close, if it was supported in my Oudie2 I would take a real hard look at it!

Kirk

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 1:00:42 PM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
On Tuesday, April 28, 2015 at 8:19:03 PM UTC-5, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

This is scary to say the least. Even if your unit works most of the time there is always a possibility of a software defect and ultimately freezing of the device. The more I am reading this thread the more I am scared to share airspace with some of you! Who knows what other ideas you might have....

Regards, AK

Andrzej, what specifically do you find scary? Having a backup attitude indicator available for the (hopefully rare) possibility that you find yourself IMC? That is already being incorporated in the new top-of-the line (read: expensive) varios, so why not have the same technology available at an affordable price for all the gliders that already have a big glass display in their cockpit?

As far as reliablity, I would trust any electronic solution more than a mechanical gyro! Especially in a glider, getting banged around while being trailered, etc.

As far as using any turn & bank type of indicator, really? Unless you are instrument rated and/or practice a lot (like the Brits, apparently), I doubt if the average US glider pilot could learn to maintain attitude in a cloud via needle, ball, and airspeed on his first attempt for real! With a big attitude display, I would expect the chances would be a lot higher.

Remember, I'm talking about an EMERGENCY setup here, since for most of us in the US cloud flying is not a practical thing to do. So I don't care if it's not TSO'd. But all the bits and pieces are already out there, it just would be nice if they were combined in a way that would be useful to us.

We wear parachutes that we hope never to use, install flarm to prevent the midair we hope to avoid. I'd like an emergency attitude source to avoid the spiral dive I never plan to get into!

Cheers,

Kirk

(And if you are wondering, yes I do have experience in hard IMC, know what vertigo feels like, and have flown needle-ball-airspeed and glass cockpits, to include HUDs.)

Kirk, I was lucky enough to receive excellent glider training including aerobatics and flying in clouds (all of it in Europe) and I have no problems with people who want to have good quality AHRS or turn and bank indicator installed in their gliders. Flying gliders in IMC is not easy and having a back up is not going to do any good to anyone without training.

What worries me is that someone suggests using LK8000 as an AHRS device.

Certified solid state AHRS go through comprehensive test scenarios. Modern AHRS is almost all software and as we know software has defects. There is no perfect software. There are just defects that are known and defects that are yet to be discovered.

Some suggestions here are good but some like $100-$200 solid state solution is just not realistic, while the sensors might be cheap a bullet proof software that uses these sensors is not. If I wanted to have a backup I would definitely spend the money on proper solid state AHRS. There are other considerations e.g. icing that can render some AHRS included in glider instruments useless if airspeed indication is lost. With modern slippery gliders flying without ASI due to icing could be all but impossible.

The quote below is from Karl's website. I often think about this quote when flying.

"We do not what we ought;
What we ought not, we do;
And lean upon the thought
That chance will bring us through."
(Matthew Arnold)

I am certainly afraid of people coming out of a cloud through the bottom in an uncontrollable way while I am there just because they ventured into the place they should not have been (as Evan said) encouraged by their great LX8000 AHRS backup.

Please note. LX8000 is great software, but it never was intended to be used as AHRS no even in emergency.

Regards,
AK

With all these new devices including the phone apps with glass cockpit, I wonder if the rules committee should just suspend anyone from SSA events for several years if they are cloud flying, instead of making contestants disable the AHRS in their butterfly or LX? Just a thought. I frankly think having a back up in case is a great idea, and I think it is exceptional stupid to intentionally illegally cloud fly in the USA without an IFR clearance. Any accident could seriously undermine all the other glider pilots. Years ago when I regularly flew out of Minden I heard many pilots talking about getting 24,000 feet or so in a thermal. I tried to speak with these pilots and explain the consequences of such mindlessness. All to no avail. I tried to get Larry Sanders to address this issue again to no avail.