Commanche alternatives?

What will the US use?

There is obviously a operational need for an attack helicopter.

How about licensed production of the Tigre!!

I can't imaging the Apache being current in a very few years, not
without major upgrades...

Cheers

According to several articles I have read the billions saved will be used to
upgrade the Apache & for RPVs.

Myc

"John Cook" wrote in message
...
What will the US use?

There is obviously a operational need for an attack helicopter.

How about licensed production of the Tigre!!

I can't imaging the Apache being current in a very few years, not
without major upgrades...

Cheers

"John Cook" wrote in message
...
What will the US use?

There is obviously a operational need for an attack helicopter.

Which is what we have the Apache for.


How about licensed production of the Tigre!!

I don't think so. Why step *down* from the current Apache?


I can't imaging the Apache being current in a very few years, not
without major upgrades...

It is being upgraded. A models are being rebuilt as D models. D models will
receive suitable upgrades as needed. What we *need* are new light utility
helos for the ARNG, and this requirment has already been mentioned as a
possible destination for some of the previously planned Commanche funds.

Brooks


Cheers

"Kevin Brooks" wrote

"John Cook" wrote in message
...
What will the US use?

There is obviously a operational need for an attack helicopter.

Which is what we have the Apache for.


How about licensed production of the Tigre!!

I don't think so. Why step *down* from the current Apache?


I can't imaging the Apache being current in a very few years, not
without major upgrades...

It is being upgraded. A models are being rebuilt as D models. D models
will
receive suitable upgrades as needed. What we *need* are new light utility
helos for the ARNG, and this requirment has already been mentioned as a
possible destination for some of the previously planned Commanche funds.

What's the status on Apache airframes? About 800 airframes built for the US
Army and as near as I can tell, the Army is planning to upgrade about 500
to -D standard. Are the balance available to be upgraded?

"Paul F Austin" wrote in message
...

"Kevin Brooks" wrote

"John Cook" wrote in message
...
What will the US use?

There is obviously a operational need for an attack helicopter.

Which is what we have the Apache for.


How about licensed production of the Tigre!!

I don't think so. Why step *down* from the current Apache?


I can't imaging the Apache being current in a very few years, not
without major upgrades...

It is being upgraded. A models are being rebuilt as D models. D models
will
receive suitable upgrades as needed. What we *need* are new light
utility
helos for the ARNG, and this requirment has already been mentioned as a
possible destination for some of the previously planned Commanche funds.

What's the status on Apache airframes? About 800 airframes built for the
US
Army and as near as I can tell, the Army is planning to upgrade about 500
to -D standard. Are the balance available to be upgraded?

The Global Security website claims that "all" of the A models are to be
upgraded, but that may have been predicated upon the planned Commanche
fielding displacing a portion of the Apache fleet. The fielding plan I saw
indicates D model fielding will continue through around 2009, but that
report was from 2000, so... The plan called for a final force of 25 Apache
battalions. With 18 aircraft per divisional attack battalion and 21 per
corps battalion, you are looking at a total force of just under 500
airframes (assuming around 14 DIV battalions and 11 corps battalions). Could
the remainder be upgraded? I don't see why not, though it may require some
more structural replacement for the earliest high-hour airframes. Do they
plan to do so? I don't know, and I have not seen anything that indicates
that is the case. I would expect there to be a lot of decisions made or
announced in the near future in view of the recent news, affecting how the
aviation force will look Army-wide (to include the ARNG elements) given the
demise of the Commanche. I think we'll see an off-the-shelf purchase of a
new LUH; the possibility of a Bell 412 in military colors is not unrealistic
(and probably more likely than the Huey II refurbishment program), destined
for primarily ARNG service. The OH-58C's currently in use by ARNG outfits
that have lost their Cobras and/or Hueys can't last long.

Brooks

Kevin Brooks wrote:

snip

I think we'll see an off-the-shelf purchase of a
new LUH; the possibility of a Bell 412 in military colors is not unrealistic
(and probably more likely than the Huey II refurbishment program), destined
for primarily ARNG service. The OH-58C's currently in use by ARNG outfits
that have lost their Cobras and/or Hueys can't last long.

BTW, here's the actual DoD transcript with the announcement and the details of
where the money's going.:

http://www.defenselink.mil/transcrip...0223-0484.html

Doesn't a Huey, especially a 412, seem rather much for replacing OH-58Cs?
Militarized Bell 407s or 430s ("Son of AirHawk!") I could see, or something
similar (hey, Howard Hughes is still dead, so maybe we could buy more OH/AH-6s
at a reasonable price). Or at a step up in size, AB-139s. Smaller than a Huey,
but larger than a Loach, and should be a lot less maintenance-intensive. If
you're going to buy new 4 blade Hueys you might as well just buy more UH-60s and
have done with it (which is apparently what is being done, along with CH-47Fs,
UAVs etc.)

Guy

"Guy Alcala" wrote in message
. ..
Kevin Brooks wrote:

snip

I think we'll see an off-the-shelf purchase of a
new LUH; the possibility of a Bell 412 in military colors is not
unrealistic
(and probably more likely than the Huey II refurbishment program),
destined
for primarily ARNG service. The OH-58C's currently in use by ARNG
outfits
that have lost their Cobras and/or Hueys can't last long.

BTW, here's the actual DoD transcript with the announcement and the
details of
where the money's going.:

http://www.defenselink.mil/transcrip...0223-0484.html

Doesn't a Huey, especially a 412, seem rather much for replacing OH-58Cs?

But if you reread the article you provided, you'll note the requirement is
to replace the 58's *and* the Hueys. The 58C's are currently serving in
three major roles in the ARNG--as cav scouts in the divisional cav
squadrons, as observation aircraft (equipped with FLIR) in the RAID
detachments (drug interdiction and homeland security), and as "caretaker"
airframes for the AH-1 inits and Huey units that have already lost their
aircraft. The 412 would not be ideal in the cav scout role, but that is only
16 aircraft per ARNG division (figuring an eventual force of no more than
six ARNG divisions, you are talking about less than 100 aircraft, and likely
less if the Guard drops down to the four division level). It would be an
excellent replacement for the Huey, especially in regards to the homeland
defense mission. The article noted a total requirement of some 300 airframes
to replace the older Kiowas and the remaining Hueys in the ARNG, and I would
not rule the 412 out as a competitor.


Militarized Bell 407s or 430s ("Son of AirHawk!") I could see, or
something
similar (hey, Howard Hughes is still dead, so maybe we could buy more
OH/AH-6s
at a reasonable price). Or at a step up in size, AB-139s. Smaller than a
Huey,
but larger than a Loach, and should be a lot less maintenance-intensive.
If
you're going to buy new 4 blade Hueys you might as well just buy more
UH-60s and
have done with it (which is apparently what is being done, along with
CH-47Fs,
UAVs etc.)

As you note, they are indeed buying more Blackhawks. But Blackhawks are
pretty pricey compared to the 412. With the increased emphasis on homeland
defense and the Guard's role in that respect, taking X amount of money and
buying more 412's than you could buy UH-60's with the same money would
appear to be a doable solution to me. I doubt the Army wants to blow any
more money than it has to on aircraft that it can't, or would prefer not to,
integrate into its warfighting plans across the board; if you bought only
UH-60's, then the tendancy would be to identify them with contingency plan
force development requirements. They'd be a bit less likely to want to
integrate a low density platform like the 412 would be. But hey, its
early--who knows?

I did find the bit about replacing the C-23's of interest. The way they
phrased that (wanting a more capable aircraft), I'd bet that the folks at
LMCO and Alenia (IIRC that is the right firm) can expect a likely C-27J
order in the not-too-distant future. The Guard folks have been squeaking
about just that possibility for a year or two now already.

Brooks


Guy

In article ,
on Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:04:05 -0500,
Kevin Brooks attempted to say .....

With 18 aircraft per divisional attack battalion



IIRC the divisional BN are going to 24 airframes.

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

"Tank Fixer" wrote in message
k.net...
In article ,
on Tue, 24 Feb 2004 20:04:05 -0500,
Kevin Brooks attempted to say .....

With 18 aircraft per divisional attack battalion



IIRC the divisional BN are going to 24 airframes.

That is the new plan; wasn't aware of that until earlier today. ISTR the
current/old model was 18 per DIV ATK BN, and 21 per corps ATK BN. Of course,
IIRC the even *older* MTOE requirement for the DIV ATK BN was...24 aircraft.
So we went from 24 to 18 and back to 24...and somewhere in there the light
divisions and the 82nd ABN DIV lost their "real" attack helos altogether,
and picked up the AH-58 in their stead. Heck, one thing is for sure--you
can't accuse the aviators of being unwilling to change!

Brooks

--
When dealing with propaganda terminology one sometimes always speaks in
variable absolutes. This is not to be mistaken for an unbiased slant.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 09:24:03 -0500, "Kevin Brooks"
wrote:


"John Cook" wrote in message
.. .
What will the US use?

There is obviously a operational need for an attack helicopter.

Which is what we have the Apache for.


How about licensed production of the Tigre!!

I don't think so. Why step *down* from the current Apache?
remember that the tiger comes in two versions, the antitank verison
and the combat support version. The two problems with the Tiger is
that its French and in the same class as the Cobra. so we would have
to pay big bucks to update it to fire US Weapons, when we could just
buy the Cobra instead. Saying this we should look for a helicopter
that can do combat support (escort,recon,A/A) saveing the apaches for
the heavy in your face fighting.

IMO whats going to happen is that we are going to put a stripped down
version of the commanche into service, minus all the crap that dosent
work/dont need, and with a change in the skin material of the aircraft
to make it alot cheaper. Then reincorporate the technology when it
becomes workable.

Or we could take a Cobra and incorporate the Comanches technology into
it.




I can't imaging the Apache being current in a very few years, not
without major upgrades...

It is being upgraded. A models are being rebuilt as D models. D models will
receive suitable upgrades as needed. What we *need* are new light utility
helos for the ARNG, and this requirment has already been mentioned as a
possible destination for some of the previously planned Commanche funds.

Brooks


Cheers