leading edge flaps

"WaltBJ" wrote...
FWIW the L1011 had a neat mode of spoiler operation - with the
trailing edge flaps in land (33 degrees) position the wing spoilers
were positioned up 8 degrees. Slight movement of the yoke fore or aft
from the trimmed position raised or lowered the spoilers effecting a
useful change in lift with minimal change in AOA. Made it very easy to
stay on a glideslope or maintain a set rate of descent.

Also done in the Navy F-14 and S-3, with minor variations.

Also done in many gliders, though manually, as a matter of course in the landing
pattern...

"Tarver Engineering" wrote...

Exactly where would I find a
reference to "a spoiler flap in a speedbrake configuration," and in what
context?

Look it up in CFR14, it is a required data element for digital flight data
recorders.

Nope. Not a single one.

"Tarver Engineering" wrote...

Exactly where would I find a
reference to "a spoiler flap in a speedbrake configuration," and in what
context?

Also, I just looked through 14CFR Part 121 -- including 121.343, 121.344, and
Appendices B and M (the FAA standards for Flight Recorder and DFDR
operational
parameters) -- and found absolutely no reference to "spoiler flaps" in
ANYconfiguration.

Or even "spoiler". Although, anyone familiar with aerodynamic surfaces
could use the full nomenclature for the fixed spoiler, or the spoiler flap.

Nope.

14CFR Part 121 (as cited above) has references to "Ground spoiler" and
"spoilers" and "spoiler", but NONE to "fixed spoiler" or "spoiler flap".

The ONLY such "full nomenclature" yet discovered is in the Tarverisms.

We're still waiting for a credible citation...

From: "John R Weiss"
Date: 1/11/2004 12:15 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id: cS5Mb.19776$Rc4.81757@attbi_s54

"Tarver Engineering" wrote...

Exactly where would I find a
reference to "a spoiler flap in a speedbrake configuration," and in what
context?

Also, I just looked through 14CFR Part 121 -- including 121.343, 121.344,
and
Appendices B and M (the FAA standards for Flight Recorder and DFDR
operational
parameters) -- and found absolutely no reference to "spoiler flaps" in
ANYconfiguration.

Or even "spoiler". Although, anyone familiar with aerodynamic surfaces
could use the full nomenclature for the fixed spoiler, or the spoiler flap.

Nope.

14CFR Part 121 (as cited above) has references to "Ground spoiler" and
"spoilers" and "spoiler", but NONE to "fixed spoiler" or "spoiler flap".

The ONLY such "full nomenclature" yet discovered is in the Tarverisms.

We're still waiting for a credible citation...


It occurs to me that a "fixed spoiler" would be immobile and thus provide
nothing of value and should be removed.

Dan, U. S. Air Force, retired

Slats are typically UN-powered devices on the leading edge that extend
simply by the reduced dynamic pressure against them as airspeed slows.
Example would be the leading edge extensions of the F-86 and F-100.

I wouldn't agree with "typically." Aero slats also extend when a certain
AOA is achieved ... the A-4 slats would extend at approximately 12 units AOA
(IIRC) and bringing them out symmetrically at higher airspeeds was not a
sure thing.

Grumman liked powered slats. Both the A-6 and F-14 had them.

R / John

Tarver Engineering wrote:
"John Mullen" wrote in message
...

Ed Rasimus wrote:

On Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:46:52 +0000, John Mullen
wrote:



Not to mention 'splaps', but that's getting a bit technical...

John


I wondered how long it would take. Mere minutes...

Heh heh!


And yet, all Mullen did was demonstrate his own ignorance.

You have to love the irony.


You do, don't you!

And ignorance is your specialist subject after all...

john

"John Carrier" wrote in message
...
Slats are typically UN-powered devices on the leading edge that extend
simply by the reduced dynamic pressure against them as airspeed slows.
Example would be the leading edge extensions of the F-86 and F-100.

I wouldn't agree with "typically." Aero slats also extend when a certain
AOA is achieved ... the A-4 slats would extend at approximately 12 units
AOA
(IIRC) and bringing them out symmetrically at higher airspeeds was not a
sure thing.

The Blues bolted 'um shut. Can you imagine what would happen in a tight
diamond with an A4 if a wing position got an asymmetrical slat extension
with roll induced....say in a barrel roll? Not a pretty thought!! :-))
Dudley Henriques
International Fighter Pilots Fellowship
Commercial Pilot/ CFI Retired
For personal email, please replace
the z's with e's.
dhenriquesATzarthlinkDOTnzt

"John R Weiss" wrote:
"WaltBJ" wrote:

FWIW the L1011 had a neat mode of spoiler operation - with the
trailing edge flaps in land (33 degrees) position the wing spoilers
were positioned up 8 degrees. Slight movement of the yoke fore or aft
from the trimmed position raised or lowered the spoilers effecting a
useful change in lift with minimal change in AOA. Made it very easy to
stay on a glideslope or maintain a set rate of descent.

Also done in the Navy F-14 and S-3, with minor variations.

Also done in many gliders, though manually, as a matter of course in the landing
pattern...

In gliders, I raise the spoilers (about halfway) while still on
downwind and leave them partially up (occassionally raising 'em
all the way if needed) all the way down to the flare.

Another commonly used method to stay on the glideslope or maintain
a set rate of descent that hasn't been mentioned is via prop pitch
(e.g: decrease pitch if drifting above glideslope, increase pitch if
drifting below glideslope).

On 11 Jan 2004 01:19:53 GMT, (B2431) wrote:

From: Ed Rasimus

Not sure what "roll steering" is.

The only place I have ever seen the terms "roll steering" and "pitch steering"
was in reference to the bars on an ADI.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

Not even there, Dan. The ADI terminology was "bank steering" and
"pitch steering".


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

On Sun, 11 Jan 2004 06:05:28 -0600, "John Carrier"
wrote:

Slats are typically UN-powered devices on the leading edge that extend
simply by the reduced dynamic pressure against them as airspeed slows.
Example would be the leading edge extensions of the F-86 and F-100.

I wouldn't agree with "typically." Aero slats also extend when a certain
AOA is achieved ... the A-4 slats would extend at approximately 12 units AOA
(IIRC) and bringing them out symmetrically at higher airspeeds was not a
sure thing.

"How many angels (angles?) can dance on the head of a pin?" My use of
"typically" referred to the "un-powered", i.e. hydraulically or
electrically actuated/operated aspect. And, the examples (F-86 and
F-100) were aerodynamic, not mechanical. It, hopefully, recognized
that slats can be mechanically operated.

If they extend when airpressure is reduced as airspeed slows, then it
would be redundant to add "also when a certain AOA is achieved"
because that is the inevitable, inexorable, undeniable result of
slowing.

Gotta believe that the assymetric deployment even intermittently would
be exciting.

Really, the discussion of the wide range of wing-modifying devices
that have been employed over the years is amazing.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8