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Narrow Runways



 
 
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  #1  
Old May 11th 05, 03:38 AM
Kyle Boatright
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Default Narrow Runways

What's the narrowest runway you've ever used? At what runway width are you
comfortable? Among other things, I had an interesting experience yesterday
with a runway that was far narrower than any I'd used before...

We had gone to Dallas for Mother's day, and returned to Atlanta yesterday in
my RV-6, which is set-up for basic VFR. The weather was marginal for most
of the way, and we made two unscheduled stops and a couple of 180 degree
course reversals to avoid weather that was below my minimums. This turned a
3.5 hour trip into an 8 hour odyssey.

Our first 180 turn and unscheduled stop occurred when the ceiling was lower
than forecast, below my personal minimums, and dropping along our route of
flight. I hit the "nearest" function on the GPS, and retreated to the
nearest airfield to give the FSS a call on the cell phone (we were too low
for radio communication). As we overflew the airfield, I noticed that all
it was was a paved strip and a paved ramp. No buildings nearby. Also, the
strip looked fairly narrow, but I went ahead with the landing anyway.

On very short final, it became obvious that this strip redefined narrow.
Accoring to the AFD, it is 50' wide, but what the AFD didn't say is that 3'
tall sagebrush grows right to the edge of the strip, and occasionally cuts
into the 50' useful width. Given that 3' sagebrush will hit the RV-6's
wingtips, I probably had 10'-12' clear on each side. Catching the sagebrush
with a wingtip would have almost certainly caused a groundloop.

With this in mind, and concentrating hard enough to cause permanant forehead
wrinkles, I managed to keep the airplane centered on landing and rollout,
then taxiied (sp?) to the ramp, where I shut down, pulled out the cell phone
and got exactly zero signal... (Sometimes you can't win.)

So, we fired up again, taxiied out, and I kept the bird out of the weeds on
takeoff and off we went. In the 30 minutes our detour consumed, the weather
along the route improved meaningfully, and we made another 225 miles before
the next unplanned stop.

After a 3 hour wait and a couple of visits with the on-field FSS at
Greenville, MS, we found a safe path around the line of storms on the
Alabama/Mississippi border and came on home. One of the real advantages to
a relatively high performance airplane is that if the weather allows, you
can get above most of the cumulus and eyeball your way around the convective
stuff. I'm not sure we would have gotten around yesterday's weather in a
C-172 or Cherokee...








  #2  
Old May 11th 05, 03:53 AM
Grumman-581
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Default

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message ...
What's the narrowest runway you've ever used?


Not sure... My current runway is 25 ft wide... It definitely seems narrow,
but there's plenty of grass on either side that I could land on also, I
guess...

At what runway width are you comfortable?


Well, I don't feel *uncomfortable* with this one, but most of my flights are
probably from an airport with a 50 ft wide runway with ditches along a good
portion of it, so rolling off the side would definitely *not* be a good
idea...

This turned a 3.5 hour trip into an 8 hour odyssey.


Ahhhh... The dreaded "scenic route"... grin


  #3  
Old May 11th 05, 03:54 AM
Jose
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What's the narrowest runway you've ever used?

I've used runways whose paving was barely wide enough for the wheels.
Somehow my approaches are better at such fields - even if I pretend that
the big dotted line of a wider runway =is= the entire runway. Dunno why
- must be the sight picture.

However, I've never landed at a field where wing clearance was an issue.

Jose

--
Money: what you need when you run out of brains.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #4  
Old May 11th 05, 04:03 AM
Marc J. Zeitlin
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Default

Kyle Boatright asks:

What's the narrowest runway you've ever used?


In my COZY MKIV, 40 ft., I think. Wingspan is 29.5 ft. or so. There
were trees/bushes on one side of the runway, and I ticked a couple of
bushes with one wingtip while turning around at the runway's end. I've
landed on 40 ft. wide runways with nothing on either side many times,
with no issues, with up to 10 kt. crosswinds.

.....At what runway width are you comfortable?


I think I'd be OK with 25-30 ft, depending upon how much crosswind there
was, and how long the runway was for takeoff. If there's no flora off
to the sides, then even narrower would be OK - keeping the plane within
5 ft. of the centerline isn't really a problem, and the gear width is
about 6-7 ft. or so.

--
Marc J. Zeitlin
http://marc.zeitlin.home.comcast.net/
http://www.cozybuilders.org/
Copyright (c) 2005


  #5  
Old May 11th 05, 04:11 AM
KayInPA
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Default


Kyle Boatright wrote:
What's the narrowest runway you've ever used?
At what runway width are you comfortable?


38 feet.
39 feet.


Kay

  #6  
Old May 11th 05, 04:17 AM
Casey Wilson
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Default


"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
What's the narrowest runway you've ever used? At what runway width are
you comfortable? Among other things, I had an interesting experience
yesterday with a runway that was far narrower than any I'd used before...


SNIP!

Trona, California, L72. Runway 17/35 is 6000 feet long and 60 feet
wide.
One of my early problems was flying at IYK with the 150 wide runways,
I was somewhat casual about the center line. Hey, in a 150 Aerobat who cares
if you are a wing width off to one side or the other?
My first experience at L72 was on my second hour of night dual. My CFI,
Bob Mikesell, had me fly over to Trona. Cocky ole me, I had mastered the
night visual approach at IYK -- piece 'o cake, says I. So Bob has me fly
over L72 and check the wind-T, then do all the proper things about entering
downwind on a 45, GUMPS, base, and split the lights on final.
As a small aside here, flaps were not a routine part of landing back in
1973 unless soft- or short-field, or some other exigency required them.
I crossed the threshold on that pitch-black night somewhat to the right
of the center-line. The visual difference in surface texture didn't
register. The runway edge lights were way over there on the right and way
over there on the left. I flared at the perfect height and kept easing back
on the yoke, easing back, easing ba... and touchdown... THERE WAS THE GOD
AWFULEST RACKET I HAD EVER HEARD!
I didn't wait for Bob... In went the Carb Heat. Firewall went the
throttle. Wallow went the little airplane back into the air to escape the
horrendous noise. With the nose down, the airspeed built up until I was
flying again.
When I looked over at Mr. Mikesell, he actually had tears running down
his cheeks he was laughing so hard. I had almost pee'd my pants and I know I
sucked half the cushion off the seat. And he is laughing.
Finally, he says, "I don't ever want to tell you about the center-line
again."
You see, the runway at L72 was 150 feet wide..., well no, the lights
were 150' wide. The paved part was only 60. The rest of the space between
the asphalt and the lights was gravel.
Bob died of a heart attack several years ago, so you don't need to make
any critical remarks about him letting a student ding up the 150's paint
flying onto the gravel. Besides, it didn't do any noticable paint damage
anyway.
Thirty-two years later, I can still hear Bob laughing when I'm on final
and I get the center-line more than a wheel-span off to either side.


  #7  
Old May 11th 05, 05:40 AM
houstondan
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Default


Casey Wilson wrote:
snip.

and touchdown... THERE WAS THE GOD
AWFULEST RACKET I HAD EVER HEARD!


Thirty-two years later, I can still hear Bob laughing when I'm on

final
and I get the center-line more than a wheel-span off to either side.


now, that was a great story, well told. thanks

my narrow runway is about 3" wide. or so it seemed to me.

where i got my ppl there are 2 runways, 17/35 r/l and the one on the
west side is big. like bravo big. concrete that goes on, as chris rea
says, "forever" and is very wide. too much crosswind for your i52? not
a problem, just bring her in crosswise.

then there was the runway that we terrified students were allowed: "the
little dirt raod". that's what we called it and by golly, that's just
what it looks like from 1000'. maybe half as long as the real runway
and rather than that pretty greyish/whitish concrete, this path was
paved with asphalt. or whatever's left after asphalt dies. all black
and rough except for the volunteer plants expressing thru the ample
cracks. on paper, it's 50' but i'm suspicious. if ray charles really
wanted to learn to fly, he could have learned take-offs there. the many
potholes formed a kind of brail that you learned to read and about
halfway down there's a huge speed bump that tells you it's time to
by-god rotate or brake like mad. mostly, we would launch off it.

as you tried to line up on the little dirt road you of course had to
especially worry about not wandering into the real runway which is
exactly 17" west or, to the east, the water-runway which they use for
float plane operations and which is also exactly 17" to the other side
and they keep it stocked with sharks.

a big-shot thousands-of-hours pilot explained to me that they allowed
the students to use the little dirt road only because they didn't want
our dirty little carcases interfering with important operations.

i felt better then.

((G))


dan

  #8  
Old May 11th 05, 04:37 AM
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
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Default

Kyle Boatright wrote:
What's the narrowest runway you've ever used? At what runway width are you
comfortable? Among other things, I had an interesting experience yesterday
with a runway that was far narrower than any I'd used before...




I can remember going into Westwego, down in New Orleans, LA in a Piper Arrow.
You know how the runway spreads out on either side of the aircraft when you
flare? Well, this one didn't. It wasn't the softest landing I've ever made but
I guarantee it was the straightest.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN




  #9  
Old May 11th 05, 04:57 AM
Dave Stadt
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Posts: n/a
Default


18 feet. I'd rather deal with narrow than wide which are usually lacking in
visual clues.

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
What's the narrowest runway you've ever used? At what runway width are

you
comfortable? Among other things, I had an interesting experience

yesterday
with a runway that was far narrower than any I'd used before...

We had gone to Dallas for Mother's day, and returned to Atlanta yesterday

in
my RV-6, which is set-up for basic VFR. The weather was marginal for

most
of the way, and we made two unscheduled stops and a couple of 180 degree
course reversals to avoid weather that was below my minimums. This turned

a
3.5 hour trip into an 8 hour odyssey.

Our first 180 turn and unscheduled stop occurred when the ceiling was

lower
than forecast, below my personal minimums, and dropping along our route of
flight. I hit the "nearest" function on the GPS, and retreated to the
nearest airfield to give the FSS a call on the cell phone (we were too low
for radio communication). As we overflew the airfield, I noticed that all
it was was a paved strip and a paved ramp. No buildings nearby. Also, the
strip looked fairly narrow, but I went ahead with the landing anyway.

On very short final, it became obvious that this strip redefined narrow.
Accoring to the AFD, it is 50' wide, but what the AFD didn't say is that

3'
tall sagebrush grows right to the edge of the strip, and occasionally cuts
into the 50' useful width. Given that 3' sagebrush will hit the RV-6's
wingtips, I probably had 10'-12' clear on each side. Catching the

sagebrush
with a wingtip would have almost certainly caused a groundloop.

With this in mind, and concentrating hard enough to cause permanant

forehead
wrinkles, I managed to keep the airplane centered on landing and rollout,
then taxiied (sp?) to the ramp, where I shut down, pulled out the cell

phone
and got exactly zero signal... (Sometimes you can't win.)

So, we fired up again, taxiied out, and I kept the bird out of the weeds

on
takeoff and off we went. In the 30 minutes our detour consumed, the

weather
along the route improved meaningfully, and we made another 225 miles

before
the next unplanned stop.

After a 3 hour wait and a couple of visits with the on-field FSS at
Greenville, MS, we found a safe path around the line of storms on the
Alabama/Mississippi border and came on home. One of the real advantages

to
a relatively high performance airplane is that if the weather allows, you
can get above most of the cumulus and eyeball your way around the

convective
stuff. I'm not sure we would have gotten around yesterday's weather in a
C-172 or Cherokee...










  #10  
Old May 11th 05, 05:43 AM
tony roberts
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Posts: n/a
Default

I never landed on an 18ft runway - don;t really know it I would want to
- I think not.
What was your shortest?
Again, I'm very conservative about this.
Mine to date is 2400 ft with trees.

My worst airport to date is in a very narrow valley where the runway is
longer and wider than my minimums, but the surrounding mountains
encroach enough that you cannot fly a standard pattern.

If I'm being honest, I'm not a great fan of extreme runways (nor is my
insurer

Tony
C-GICE


In article ,
"Dave Stadt" wrote:

18 feet. I'd rather deal with narrow than wide which are usually lacking in
visual clues.

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
...
What's the narrowest runway you've ever used? At what runway width are

you
comfortable? Among other things, I had an interesting experience

yesterday
with a runway that was far narrower than any I'd used before...

We had gone to Dallas for Mother's day, and returned to Atlanta yesterday

in
my RV-6, which is set-up for basic VFR. The weather was marginal for

most
of the way, and we made two unscheduled stops and a couple of 180 degree
course reversals to avoid weather that was below my minimums. This turned

a
3.5 hour trip into an 8 hour odyssey.

Our first 180 turn and unscheduled stop occurred when the ceiling was

lower
than forecast, below my personal minimums, and dropping along our route of
flight. I hit the "nearest" function on the GPS, and retreated to the
nearest airfield to give the FSS a call on the cell phone (we were too low
for radio communication). As we overflew the airfield, I noticed that all
it was was a paved strip and a paved ramp. No buildings nearby. Also, the
strip looked fairly narrow, but I went ahead with the landing anyway.

On very short final, it became obvious that this strip redefined narrow.
Accoring to the AFD, it is 50' wide, but what the AFD didn't say is that

3'
tall sagebrush grows right to the edge of the strip, and occasionally cuts
into the 50' useful width. Given that 3' sagebrush will hit the RV-6's
wingtips, I probably had 10'-12' clear on each side. Catching the

sagebrush
with a wingtip would have almost certainly caused a groundloop.

With this in mind, and concentrating hard enough to cause permanant

forehead
wrinkles, I managed to keep the airplane centered on landing and rollout,
then taxiied (sp?) to the ramp, where I shut down, pulled out the cell

phone
and got exactly zero signal... (Sometimes you can't win.)

So, we fired up again, taxiied out, and I kept the bird out of the weeds

on
takeoff and off we went. In the 30 minutes our detour consumed, the

weather
along the route improved meaningfully, and we made another 225 miles

before
the next unplanned stop.

After a 3 hour wait and a couple of visits with the on-field FSS at
Greenville, MS, we found a safe path around the line of storms on the
Alabama/Mississippi border and came on home. One of the real advantages

to
a relatively high performance airplane is that if the weather allows, you
can get above most of the cumulus and eyeball your way around the

convective
stuff. I'm not sure we would have gotten around yesterday's weather in a
C-172 or Cherokee...












--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE
 




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