Stay in, or get out?

You've had a whack, but everything feels fine. Do you stay in the
glider, or leave? Just how reliable are the parachutes we use? I
understand that they're fairly simple quick-opening designs, but
there's no reserve, right? Has a glider-pilot parachute ever failed?


Dan

failure rate is one per low thousands, your chances
of leaving the glider are 50/50

if you lose some wing it spins, if the tailplane comes
of it bunts, then is to late......

I recall there was a deployment failure in the uk,
but apparently caused by the diy backpad preventing
proper operation of the chute
I also know of at least one case where a pilot stayed
and the glider failed to low to bail out.

if you have a stable jump platform use it. I know at
least 4 people who have baled out of gliders ok, but
they were all no brainers, one of them was a K21 which
turned into a dart shortly after being struck by lighting!
(I saw that one happen)

Pete



At 21:06 10 September 2007, Dan G wrote:
You've had a whack, but everything feels fine. Do you
stay in the
glider, or leave? Just how reliable are the parachutes
we use? I
understand that they're fairly simple quick-opening
designs, but
there's no reserve, right? Has a glider-pilot parachute
ever failed?


Dan

"Dan G" wrote in message
ups.com...
You've had a whack, but everything feels fine. Do you stay in the
glider, or leave? Just how reliable are the parachutes we use? I
understand that they're fairly simple quick-opening designs, but
there's no reserve, right? Has a glider-pilot parachute ever failed?


Dan


That depends. The chute is very reliable..super high tech yet very simply
elegant. How reliable are you? Have you ever jumped before? Would you be
stable in free fall, and have your wits about you to pull the ripcord in a
stable position?

Jim Vincent wrote:

That depends. The chute is very reliable..super high tech yet very simply
elegant. How reliable are you? Have you ever jumped before? Would you be
stable in free fall, and have your wits about you to pull the ripcord in a
stable position?

Does it matter how stable you are with an emergency parachute? My
observation is untrained people that get out of the glider get the
parachute open and land with minimal injury. Apparently, the emergency
parachutes are so well designed, no training is needed to do an adequate
job. The real problem appears to be getting out, and there aren't any
places offering training in that. If the glider manufacturer offers a
Roeger hook, pilots can improve their chances considerably by
retrofitting a one to older gliders that don't have one.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

That depends. The chute is very reliable..super high tech yet very simply
elegant. How reliable are you? Have you ever jumped before? Would you be
stable in free fall, and have your wits about you to pull the ripcord in a
stable position?

Jim, while I appreciate your concern about being stable in freefall
(having tried it myself, long long time ago), I think you overestimate
the need to get into a stable free fall in an emergency bailout
situation. In most cases, there will be no need to delay opening
until lower altitude (wave flights excepted). So the real task is to
successfully exit the glider, find the ripcord (not any of the other
hard shiny things on the harness), then pulling it with enough
altitude to get a good chute. Tens of thousands of military aircrew
managed to do this for real and survive, and I am pretty sure 99.9%
didn't have ANY training in getting into a stable arch before pulling!

My concern is that someone with only a little training might be more
concerned with "style points" and delay opening too late - especially
back east where a lot of time is spent below 3000' agl, and a midair
with another glider or a spamcan is a real risk.

I know I'm not going to even think about getting into a nice hard arch
- I'm getting clear of the glider as fast as I can, looking for the D-
ring, grabbing it with both hands, and yanking that sucker ASAP! If
it hurts the old nads during opening, so be it - I can deal with that
later.

Absolutely agree that every glider pilot who wears a chute should try
to experience a tandem or static line jump, if possible - great
confidence builder, and a lot of fun, too!

Cheers,

Kirk
66

You've had a whack, but everything feels fine. Do you
stay in the
glider, or leave? Just how reliable are the parachutes
we use? I
understand that they're fairly simple quick-opening
designs, but
there's no reserve, right? Has a glider-pilot parachute
ever failed?


Dan

[/quote]

Dan,
Simply, there is no blanket answer, way too many variables exist.
Derek Piggot writes a fascinating account of his bail-out in some of his gliding books, I would suggest reading them.
Gliding Kiwi has a great article this month on a NZ instructor landing a rudderless puch with a PAX - more heart stopping reading!

Basically if it does fly after a hit, check to see that it will keep flying with some harsh movements -height limits withstanding- long enough to land. Landing manuevering can be rough, you want to be sure the thing doesnt fail at 100 feet after nursing down from a good bail out height.

Rough rule has been bandied about RAS about 1500 ft as a minimum bail-out altitude, many would disagree, but if you dont have a choice.....

Bottom line is you are worth more than a glider, if in doubt, get out

fly safe
Bagger

bagger

"Eric Greenwell" wrote in message
news:k_lFi.1688$eh3.572@trndny07...
Jim Vincent wrote:

That depends. The chute is very reliable..super high tech yet very
simply elegant. How reliable are you? Have you ever jumped before?
Would you be stable in free fall, and have your wits about you to pull
the ripcord in a stable position?

Does it matter how stable you are with an emergency parachute? My
observation is untrained people that get out of the glider get the
parachute open and land with minimal injury. Apparently, the emergency
parachutes are so well designed, no training is needed to do an adequate
job. The real problem appears to be getting out, and there aren't any
places offering training in that. If the glider manufacturer offers a
Roeger hook, pilots can improve their chances considerably by retrofitting
a one to older gliders that don't have one.

37 years ago while flying in an A-6A Intruder I was faced with the decision
to "stay in, or get out." With the starboard engine and wing on fire, the
decision process was simple. If I "stayed in" I would die. If I got out I
might live.

I feel the same decision process applies to sailplanes. If the bird is out
of control, you most likely will die and your emergency chute becomes your
hope of survival.

That being said, jump training will give confidence and reading accident
reports like the following will further your understanding of unforeseen
perils that may be encountered.
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder/Stories/Bailout.htm

Wayne
HP-14 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/

"bagmaker" wrote in message
...

-
You've had a whack, but everything feels fine. Do you
stay in the
glider, or leave? Just how reliable are the parachutes
we use? I
understand that they're fairly simple quick-opening
designs, but
there's no reserve, right? Has a glider-pilot parachute
ever failed?


Dan

-

Dan,
Simply, there is no blanket answer, way too many variables exist.
Derek Piggot writes a fascinating account of his bail-out in some of his
gliding books, I would suggest reading them.
Gliding Kiwi has a great article this month on a NZ instructor landing a
rudderless puch with a PAX - more heart stopping reading!

Basically if it does fly after a hit, check to see that it will keep
flying with some harsh movements -height limits withstanding- long enough
to land. Landing manuevering can be rough, you want to be sure the thing
doesnt fail at 100 feet after nursing down from a good bail out height.

Rough rule has been bandied about RAS about 1500 ft as a minimum bail-out
altitude, many would disagree, but if you dont have a choice.....

Bottom line is you are worth more than a glider, if in doubt, get out

fly safe
Bagger

I've twice faced the decision to jump or land a crippled glider. The first
was a Pratt-Read badly damaged from a mid-air. I had fresh jump training, a
fresh repack and a stable jump platform but I decided to land it anyway.
The critical decision was whether I could control the glider from the time
it decended below a safe jump altitude until it was on the ground. I could
and did. For the record, the other pilot in the mid-air did the same thing.

The second was an experimental flying wing where a suposedly secure lead
shot bag shifted in flight so as to jam the elevator/aileron bellcranks. I
found I could steer with rudder and slow it to 70Kts with trim. That let me
hit the runway on a fast, shallow glide. It was a rough landing but the
glider and I survived to fly again.

In both cases there was intense discussion post flight about the wisdom of
my decisions. A slim majority said the conservative action was to have
abandoned ship. My view was if the thing is more or less controllable, and
you have a big airfield to aim at, land it. If it is an airplane loaded
with fuel, that might shift the decision toward jumping. However, a glider
that can be flown to hit a large flat area at a shallow angle is likely to
be safer than the 'chute. If there is any doubt that the glider will remain
controllable - jump.

The real problem here is struggling to rise from a reclining position and
crawl over the side with a 15 pound 'chute on your back. That's difficult.
Being old, out of shape and/or overweight makes it impossible. This is
where the NOAH system from DG is so significant. Of all the safety related
things that one could spend money on, the NOAH system tops the list for me.

Bill Daniels

Bill,

I too applaud DG for developing the NOAH system. However, complexity, cost,
and it's "one time use" nature may limit its appeal for many.

After suffering a bout of "frozen shoulder" last year, that made it
difficult for me to even exit my glider on the ground, I've decided there's
a need to develop a more simple air-lift bag for my glider.

This bag would probably be made of coated nylon and be inflated with an
easily refillable compressed air bottle. Inflation would be via a
quarter-turn manual valve with no safety devices except perhaps a manual
interlock pin (if a solenoid valve were used, a canopy-open interlock could
be incorporated). The intent would be to design the "air-lift under cushion"
for ground use only, to assist the pilot in exiting the ship. If this system
were marketed, restricting it to ground use would hopefully help eliminate
the liability concerns of a system intended to assist a bail out.

Like many of my ideas, I may not find the time to make this. And if do, I
may only make one to test in my glider. (I'm still questioning the decision
to market the Quiet Vent and MKII Yaw String :c).

Comments, suggestions welcome.

bumper
ZZ
Minden



"Bill Daniels" bildan@comcast-dot-net wrote in message
. ..

"bagmaker" wrote in message
...

-
You've had a whack, but everything feels fine. Do you
stay in the
glider, or leave? Just how reliable are the parachutes
we use? I
understand that they're fairly simple quick-opening
designs, but
there's no reserve, right? Has a glider-pilot parachute
ever failed?


Dan

-

Dan,
Simply, there is no blanket answer, way too many variables exist.
Derek Piggot writes a fascinating account of his bail-out in some of his
gliding books, I would suggest reading them.
Gliding Kiwi has a great article this month on a NZ instructor landing a
rudderless puch with a PAX - more heart stopping reading!

Basically if it does fly after a hit, check to see that it will keep
flying with some harsh movements -height limits withstanding- long enough
to land. Landing manuevering can be rough, you want to be sure the thing
doesnt fail at 100 feet after nursing down from a good bail out height.

Rough rule has been bandied about RAS about 1500 ft as a minimum bail-out
altitude, many would disagree, but if you dont have a choice.....

Bottom line is you are worth more than a glider, if in doubt, get out

fly safe
Bagger

I've twice faced the decision to jump or land a crippled glider. The
first was a Pratt-Read badly damaged from a mid-air. I had fresh jump
training, a fresh repack and a stable jump platform but I decided to land
it anyway. The critical decision was whether I could control the glider
from the time it decended below a safe jump altitude until it was on the
ground. I could and did. For the record, the other pilot in the mid-air
did the same thing.

The second was an experimental flying wing where a suposedly secure lead
shot bag shifted in flight so as to jam the elevator/aileron bellcranks.
I found I could steer with rudder and slow it to 70Kts with trim. That
let me hit the runway on a fast, shallow glide. It was a rough landing
but the glider and I survived to fly again.

In both cases there was intense discussion post flight about the wisdom of
my decisions. A slim majority said the conservative action was to have
abandoned ship. My view was if the thing is more or less controllable,
and you have a big airfield to aim at, land it. If it is an airplane
loaded with fuel, that might shift the decision toward jumping. However,
a glider that can be flown to hit a large flat area at a shallow angle is
likely to be safer than the 'chute. If there is any doubt that the glider
will remain controllable - jump.

The real problem here is struggling to rise from a reclining position and
crawl over the side with a 15 pound 'chute on your back. That's
difficult. Being old, out of shape and/or overweight makes it impossible.
This is where the NOAH system from DG is so significant. Of all the
safety related things that one could spend money on, the NOAH system tops
the list for me.

Bill Daniels

Bill Daniels wrote:

The real problem here is struggling to rise from a reclining position and
crawl over the side with a 15 pound 'chute on your back. That's difficult.
Being old, out of shape and/or overweight makes it impossible. This is
where the NOAH system from DG is so significant. Of all the safety related
things that one could spend money on, the NOAH system tops the list for me.

It would be interesting to construct a list of these things, and
prioritize them by their cost/benefit ratio. Bill seems like a very
safety conscious pilot, so he probably is at the point where a NOAH
system would give him the most safety increase for the buck. I'll bet a
lot, maybe most, pilots aren't in that situation.

A simple example is the Roeger hook (or a variant) that is part of every
new glider with a forward opening canopy, ensuring it can be jettisoned
safely. DG makes a retrofit available for all their older gliders, yet
relatively few have purchased one. I know Schleicher offers retrofits
for at least one glider (I bought and installed one), and perhaps others.

How many pilots have a "spoilers open during takeoff" warning? I believe
more pilots have died because of this than those that couldn't bail out
of a glider because the G forces were to great.

Here's a start on a safety equipment list, ordered by cost/benefit:

A list for the *Serious Cross-Country Pilot*

"spoilers open on takeoff" warning ($100)
parachute ($1200)
Roeger hook ($600 - my cost)
PCAS transponder detector ($450)
Transponder ($3000)
NOAH ($5000)
ELT ($1000 - 406 hz unit)
PLB ($200 - $500)

My list reflects my situation. I'm sure there should probably be several
lists that account for where you fly and the kind of flying you do. What
do other pilots think this list should include, where would you place
things in the list, and what pilots is it intended for?

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
* "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org