Using Ethanol in Your Plane

The tip tanks are the only things that have been ruined SO FAR. There is no
telling how many little pieces are slowly dissolving as we speak.


"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:GaIOf.596354$084.204618@attbi_s22...
He has ruined his tip tanks at a loss of $7000 but is using mogas
"without difficulty". Right. That guy is every bit as stupid and
confused as the moron who blundered into the D.C. ADIZ a few months
ago, and is as likely to give GA an equally bad name.

I agree -- but the fact remains that he IS running a stock O-540 on
gasohol, without difficulty. (Well, other than ruining the fiberglass tip
tanks -- admittedly a still price to pay.)

This presents some hope for those of us who live in fear of the day when
our Gubmint removes regular unleaded gasoline from our host of options,
purportedly "for our own good"...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Sun, 5 Mar 2006, RST Engineering wrote:

However, when Ernie found out that California fuel contained about 5%
ethanol, he considered that the rubber bladder fuel tanks and the
neoprene carb needle probably wouldn't be overjoyed sitting all winter
in an ethanol bath and hasn't used it since.

Did Ernie ever take a look at those & other parts to see if they were
actually affected by the ethanol?

On a related note, I'd be very interested in hearing about experiences or
knowledgeable opinions on using ethanol in an IO-360-A1A. In particular,
I'd like to know if there's anything in the fuel injection system that
would be negatively affected by ethanol, and what octane I need to stay
above to avoid any chance of detonation (8.7:1 compression). It's in an
experimental airplane so there's no concerns about legality.

-Dan

"Ross Richardson" wrote in message
...
I thought that I read about a C-182 in Brazil running on straight ethanol.


Its not a C182, its a certified crop-duster.



http://www.defesanet.com.br/embraer/ipanema1000th.htm

This thread keeps re-surfacing...

"Dan Youngquist" wrote in message
hell.org...
On Sun, 5 Mar 2006, RST Engineering wrote:

However, when Ernie found out that California fuel contained about 5%
ethanol, he considered that the rubber bladder fuel tanks and the
neoprene carb needle probably wouldn't be overjoyed sitting all winter in
an ethanol bath and hasn't used it since.

Did Ernie ever take a look at those & other parts to see if they were
actually affected by the ethanol?

On a related note, I'd be very interested in hearing about experiences or
knowledgeable opinions on using ethanol in an IO-360-A1A. In particular,
I'd like to know if there's anything in the fuel injection system that
would be negatively affected by ethanol, and what octane I need to stay
above to avoid any chance of detonation (8.7:1 compression). It's in an
experimental airplane so there's no concerns about legality.

-Dan

There is a squadron of RV-3's that has flown exclusively on ethanol for 10
years or more. You could probably google them to find out more information.

A couple of things about Ethanol: 1) It has higher octane than avgas. 2)
It has lower specific energy content.

That means you can raise the compression ratio, but gallon for gallon, your
range will be less.

KB

True. Not only the range will be less gallon for gallon, it'll be less
pound for pound as well, because ethanol has lower specific energy
content by weight as well compared with gasoline.

However, a spark ignited engine specifically designed for burning
ethanol can be lighter because the lower CHT, which reduces the need of
cylinder cooling, which in term allows a cowling design that has
smaller cooling drag. Cooling drag is one of the biggest drag
components in total drag. I don't know the answer, but it's possible
an airframe and engine combination specifically designed for ethanol
fuel might be just as just as good in terms of performance and range,
compared with today's gasoline powered piston planes.

Looking in to the long term future, the day will come when airline
industry sees the need to invest in alternative and renewable fuel for
the sole reason of economy. When that happens we'll probably see
ethanol powered jet engines. Hopefully there will still be private
piston flying in this country and we'll start to see clean sheet design
piston engine and airframe based on a new fuel. Maybe instead of
ethanol, we'll have diesel engine burning corn oil :-)




Kyle Boatright wrote:


A couple of things about Ethanol: 1) It has higher octane than avgas. 2)
It has lower specific energy content.

That means you can raise the compression ratio, but gallon for gallon, your
range will be less.

KB

Doug wrote:
Alcohol would work just fine in GA aircraft, as well as in
cars. Very few problems at all, once the engine and fuel system is
fully designed for it.

I've been reading a bit about what Ford had to do to get the Escape to
run on E85 (85% EtOH, 15% gasoline). One of the issues was the fuel
pump. E85 is electrically conductive (gasoline is not), which was a
problem for the pumps they were using. I don't know how that carries
over to airplane fuel pumps, or what it was about the pump in the
Escape which cared that it was pumping a conductive fluid.

I don't know how EtOH compares to gasoline for available energy per
pound of fuel, which is sort of an important issue for airplanes.

Jay Honeck wrote:


Jim Weir, you out there? Have you done any barn yard experimenting with
ethanol in your 182?

Ethanol isn't currently a solution to anything other than
Archer-Daniels-Midland. It's not a viable source of energy (current
production techniques use as much oil to grow and process the
ethanol than the oil it would replace in the market). Further,
the use of it as an oxygenate in reformulated fuels is suspect
as well.

Designing a gasoline vehicle to be fuel-flexible isn't hard.
Retrofitting one isn't impossible (but may be more trouble
than it's worth).

Kyle Boatright wrote:

Isn't the issue that because of the required fuel/air mixture, an engine
running on Ethanol is going to run lean, assuming the carb or fuel injection
system is configured for gasoline?

Other than the wingtip issues, I wonder if there are hidden problems due to
the ethanol. No telling what impact ethanol has on fuel tank sealant,
hoses, seals, etc.

Ethanol unlike gasoline is hydroscopic. This causes problems with
swelling of rubber fuel components as well as increased corrosion
problems.

There are a lot of airplanes not certified mostly crop-dusters running
100% pure Ethanol. The problem with Ethanol is taht it is corosive. It
will eat up your fuel thank, fuel lines, carburator. Cars made to run
in Ethanol have these parts with modified materials to slow down the
corrosion. On airplanes I was told they manufacture stainless steel
fuel thanks and replace the lines with stainless steel ones. These guys
don't care as the diference in Ethanol cost can be 1/3 of Avgas in
Brazil. So for the amount of flying they do it pays for a new engine
every few months.

Most new cars sold today in Brazil are fuel flexible. This is made
posible with electronic fuel injection systems. Ethanol today is 1/2"
price of gasoline and 1/3 of Avgas in Brazil. Cars run on Ethanol have
consums more than cars run on gasoline.