WinPilot ADV & PRO 9.0b Flarm

WinPilot 9.0b Flarm

FLARM: Added ability to track several other gliders in the vicinity
that also carry FLARM on board. WinPilot can now show wisually the
position of the other gliders, their bearing, and also indicate
weather or not they are climbing, and if so, what their current climb
rate is.



Richard
www.craggyaero.com

Hi Richard
the official Winpilot website is still winpilot.com?
Because I can't find 9.0b version...

thanks

Rocco Caruso
Aero Gazette
www.gazette.aero

On Feb 4, 4:30 pm, wrote:
Hi Richard
the official Winpilot website is still winpilot.com?
Because I can't find 9.0b version...

thanks

Rocco Caruso
Aero Gazettewww.gazette.aero

http://winpilot.com/Beta.asp

Richard wrote:
WinPilot 9.0b Flarm

FLARM: Added ability to track several other gliders in the vicinity
that also carry FLARM on board. WinPilot can now show wisually the
position of the other gliders, their bearing, and also indicate
weather or not they are climbing, and if so, what their current climb
rate is.



Richard
www.craggyaero.com



Don't the rules prohibit any thermal detection system that has a range
beyond the wingtip of the glider?? Seems like any system that provides
location and climb rate is violating the INTENT of the rule.

I completely agree that proximity detection is a benefit to safety, but
I'll bet that unless the software programmers elect to limit the data
that could be used to a competitive advantage on their own that we'll
ultimately see new rules come into play that will force that requirement.

Hi,

I think we will see a lot of software and hardware in the near future that
will allow us to see the climb rates of gliders in our area. The rules
committee will have to figure out how to deal with that. I don't see how
they can tell a pilot not to use their favorite soaring software or their
FLARM (or similar device).

Telling them not to use their FLARM would be like asking for a lawsuit
should they get into an accident. I don't think any contest manager would
ever do that.

Also, it could be argued that seeing climb rates of nearby gliders is a
safety enhancement because it can help you avoid a landout - given than
landout is less safe then landing at an airport.

It will be very interesting to see how this develops.

Check out the image on my SeeYou page of the new FLARM radar. I think it is
really cool! But I'm a techno-nerd...
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/seeyou.htm

Certainly this is not much of an issue in the USA at this time because very
few gliders are using FLARM here. But in a year or 2 we may have low cost
ADS-B units that will offer the same functionality in SeeYou and other
software.

Like all new technologies I'm sure that some pilots will embrace it and
others will not want themselves or others to use it. But I'm pretty certain
that it is going to happen. I think it will increase the level of safety and
fun.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

"Gary Emerson" wrote in message
...
Richard wrote:
WinPilot 9.0b Flarm

FLARM: Added ability to track several other gliders in the vicinity
that also carry FLARM on board. WinPilot can now show wisually the
position of the other gliders, their bearing, and also indicate
weather or not they are climbing, and if so, what their current climb
rate is.



Richard
www.craggyaero.com



Don't the rules prohibit any thermal detection system that has a range
beyond the wingtip of the glider?? Seems like any system that provides
location and climb rate is violating the INTENT of the rule.

I completely agree that proximity detection is a benefit to safety, but
I'll bet that unless the software programmers elect to limit the data that
could be used to a competitive advantage on their own that we'll
ultimately see new rules come into play that will force that requirement.

Paul makes sense.

Contest rules are about maintaining a level playing field and managing
safety not judging the merits of new technology. It may make sense to go
slow with rule changes until it's available to everyone and the relative
benefits and liabilities are better known - but that probably won't take too
long.

I agree, it will be interesting to watch how it develops.

Bill D


"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:2J_pj.16823$9j6.1063@attbi_s22...
Hi,

I think we will see a lot of software and hardware in the near future that
will allow us to see the climb rates of gliders in our area. The rules
committee will have to figure out how to deal with that. I don't see how
they can tell a pilot not to use their favorite soaring software or their
FLARM (or similar device).

Telling them not to use their FLARM would be like asking for a lawsuit
should they get into an accident. I don't think any contest manager would
ever do that.

Also, it could be argued that seeing climb rates of nearby gliders is a
safety enhancement because it can help you avoid a landout - given than
landout is less safe then landing at an airport.

It will be very interesting to see how this develops.

Check out the image on my SeeYou page of the new FLARM radar. I think it
is really cool! But I'm a techno-nerd...
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/seeyou.htm

Certainly this is not much of an issue in the USA at this time because
very few gliders are using FLARM here. But in a year or 2 we may have low
cost ADS-B units that will offer the same functionality in SeeYou and
other software.

Like all new technologies I'm sure that some pilots will embrace it and
others will not want themselves or others to use it. But I'm pretty
certain that it is going to happen. I think it will increase the level of
safety and fun.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

"Gary Emerson" wrote in message
...
Richard wrote:
WinPilot 9.0b Flarm

FLARM: Added ability to track several other gliders in the vicinity
that also carry FLARM on board. WinPilot can now show wisually the
position of the other gliders, their bearing, and also indicate
weather or not they are climbing, and if so, what their current climb
rate is.



Richard
www.craggyaero.com



Don't the rules prohibit any thermal detection system that has a range
beyond the wingtip of the glider?? Seems like any system that provides
location and climb rate is violating the INTENT of the rule.

I completely agree that proximity detection is a benefit to safety, but
I'll bet that unless the software programmers elect to limit the data
that could be used to a competitive advantage on their own that we'll
ultimately see new rules come into play that will force that requirement.

Paul,

I'd be very interested to hear more about these ADS-B
units.
Do you have some solid facts and how much are you allowed
to tell us?

cheers,
Edward

At 14:54 05 February 2008, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I think we will see a lot of software and hardware
in the near future that
will allow us to see the climb rates of gliders in
our area. The rules
committee will have to figure out how to deal with
that. I don't see how
they can tell a pilot not to use their favorite soaring
software or their
FLARM (or similar device).

Telling them not to use their FLARM would be like asking
for a lawsuit
should they get into an accident. I don't think any
contest manager would
ever do that.

Also, it could be argued that seeing climb rates of
nearby gliders is a
safety enhancement because it can help you avoid a
landout - given than
landout is less safe then landing at an airport.

It will be very interesting to see how this develops.

Check out the image on my SeeYou page of the new FLARM
radar. I think it is
really cool! But I'm a techno-nerd...
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/seeyou.htm

Certainly this is not much of an issue in the USA at
this time because very
few gliders are using FLARM here. But in a year or
2 we may have low cost
ADS-B units that will offer the same functionality
in SeeYou and other
software.

Like all new technologies I'm sure that some pilots
will embrace it and
others will not want themselves or others to use it.
But I'm pretty certain
that it is going to happen. I think it will increase
the level of safety and
fun.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

'Gary Emerson' wrote in message
t...
Richard wrote:
WinPilot 9.0b Flarm

FLARM: Added ability to track several other gliders
in the vicinity
that also carry FLARM on board. WinPilot can now show
wisually the
position of the other gliders, their bearing, and
also indicate
weather or not they are climbing, and if so, what
their current climb
rate is.



Richard
www.craggyaero.com



Don't the rules prohibit any thermal detection system
that has a range
beyond the wingtip of the glider?? Seems like any
system that provides
location and climb rate is violating the INTENT of
the rule.

I completely agree that proximity detection is a benefit
to safety, but
I'll bet that unless the software programmers elect
to limit the data that
could be used to a competitive advantage on their
own that we'll
ultimately see new rules come into play that will
force that requirement.

Hi Edward,

Good question. Some people think it makes sense to bring FLARM to the USA.
It is a great product and more than 9000 are in use around the world.
However, many feel that FLARM will never gain acceptance in the USA because
ADS-B devices may be available soon which would make the FLARM devices
obsolete - at least in the USA.

There are currently no products available for us that use ADS-B receivers
and transmitters - unless you count the large and heavy $9000 unit from
Garmin. Some feel they will never exist in small, low cost packages.
However, an organization called Mitre (U.S. government funded I think)
created a small device that is an ADS-B transmitter for very low cost. They
don't plan to build the units, they plan to hand off or license the design
to manufacturers. I think the unit was designed for use in remotely piloted
and autonomous aircraft flying in US airspace. Someone from Mitre will be
giving an overview at the meeting at the SSA Convention (see below for
details).

However, there are many hurdles. The Mitre box is a transmitter only - not
a receiver - at least at this time. We need a unit that both transmits and
receives. I think FLARM's approach with a very simple user interface is
fantastic and I am encouraging manufacturers to built units like the FLARM
but using ADS-B. (Technically speaking FLARM is an ADS-B device, but it
doesn't match USA ADS-B design.) FLARM may even built an ADS-B version - I
really don't know. One reason for the meeting at the SSA Convention is to
bring together people from Mitre and companies that may be interested in
building units in the short term. Urs Rothacher from FLARM will be at the
meeting as will Jason Clemens - the creator of the Zaon MRX. Another
purpose of the meeting is to bring technology minded glider pilots up to
speed on the potential for these devices. Another purpose is to have a
crowd of glider pilots at the meeting to encourage manufacturers to build
these units.

Another potential hurdle is that the FAA may require that the units use
aviation certified GPS units and that the unit be certificated (I'm not sure
of the terminology) which would cost - a LOT. Our hope is that we can get
something FLARM like (low cost, simple, small, low power drain) out into the
hands of thousands of glider pilots and power plane pilots quickly - hoping
that the FAA will then accept them as a tremendous safety enhancer. Very
few people will buy $9000 units but many would buy $800 to $1500 units - I
think. Of course, the lower the cost the better. If we are talking about
equipping tens of thousands of general aviation planes then we may be able
to get the cost down into the range of the Zaon MRX at about $500 - which
would be even better.

My dream is that is 1 to 2 years from now many glider pilots will be
voluntarily using low cost ADS-B transmitter/receiver units. They will show
nearby traffic where you are AND they will allow you to see nearby traffic -
not only traffic that has an ADS-B transmitter. If you are near a radar
controlled airport with ADS-B transmitting you would also see all traffic
that has a transponder because they broadcast that information to ADS-B
receivers - cool! Then we can start promoting the benefits to general
aviation and ultra-light pilots through AOPA magazine and Sport Aviation
(EAA) magazine, etc. so that eventually small planes will start using the
technology voluntarily. To be honest - I sincerely hope that the FAA
mandates it in 10 years so I can see ALL traffic. I imagine I'm in the
minority on that wish. I hate mandates, but I love improved safety and it
will only work for us if everyone embraces it.

I think that is extremely exciting. Every report I've heard from FLARM and
Zaon MRX users is that there is much more traffic out there than they
realized and they like being warned about it. I want to know where other
traffic is! I want every other airplane to know where my glider is! The
icing on the cake is that I may be able to see on the moving map on my PDA
or flight computer nearby traffic and even their current climb rates. Of
course, we don't want everyone flying around with their heads down in the
cockpit - so we will need to be careful about how it is implemented. I
believe that ADS-B has greater range than FLARM so we may be able to see
gliders in thermals 10 miles ahead of us. I think that would be wonderful.

If you think this is interesting I encourage you to join us for the "FLARM /
ADS-B in the USA - A Meeting of Minds" meeting on Wednesday, February 13th
in the Albuquerque Convention Center. It would make a better impression on
future manufacturers if we get a big turnout of interested glider pilots.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

"Edward Lockhart" wrote in message
...
Paul,

I'd be very interested to hear more about these ADS-B
units.
Do you have some solid facts and how much are you allowed
to tell us?

cheers,
Edward

At 14:54 05 February 2008, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I think we will see a lot of software and hardware
in the near future that
will allow us to see the climb rates of gliders in
our area. The rules
committee will have to figure out how to deal with
that. I don't see how
they can tell a pilot not to use their favorite soaring
software or their
FLARM (or similar device).

Telling them not to use their FLARM would be like asking
for a lawsuit
should they get into an accident. I don't think any
contest manager would
ever do that.

Also, it could be argued that seeing climb rates of
nearby gliders is a
safety enhancement because it can help you avoid a
landout - given than
landout is less safe then landing at an airport.

It will be very interesting to see how this develops.

Check out the image on my SeeYou page of the new FLARM
radar. I think it is
really cool! But I'm a techno-nerd...
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/seeyou.htm

Certainly this is not much of an issue in the USA at
this time because very
few gliders are using FLARM here. But in a year or
2 we may have low cost
ADS-B units that will offer the same functionality
in SeeYou and other
software.

Like all new technologies I'm sure that some pilots
will embrace it and
others will not want themselves or others to use it.
But I'm pretty certain
that it is going to happen. I think it will increase
the level of safety and
fun.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

'Gary Emerson' wrote in message
et...
Richard wrote:
WinPilot 9.0b Flarm

FLARM: Added ability to track several other gliders
in the vicinity
that also carry FLARM on board. WinPilot can now show
wisually the
position of the other gliders, their bearing, and
also indicate
weather or not they are climbing, and if so, what
their current climb
rate is.



Richard
www.craggyaero.com



Don't the rules prohibit any thermal detection system
that has a range
beyond the wingtip of the glider?? Seems like any
system that provides
location and climb rate is violating the INTENT of
the rule.

I completely agree that proximity detection is a benefit
to safety, but
I'll bet that unless the software programmers elect
to limit the data that
could be used to a competitive advantage on their
own that we'll
ultimately see new rules come into play that will
force that requirement.

I just realized that my reply had a subject that didn't match the message so
I'm re-posting with a more appropriate subject.
Paul Remde

"Paul Remde" wrote in message
news:C12qj.17036$9j6.2310@attbi_s22...
Hi Edward,

Good question. Some people think it makes sense to bring FLARM to the
USA. It is a great product and more than 9000 are in use around the world.
However, many feel that FLARM will never gain acceptance in the USA
because ADS-B devices may be available soon which would make the FLARM
devices obsolete - at least in the USA.

There are currently no products available for us that use ADS-B receivers
and transmitters - unless you count the large and heavy $9000 unit from
Garmin. Some feel they will never exist in small, low cost packages.
However, an organization called Mitre (U.S. government funded I think)
created a small device that is an ADS-B transmitter for very low cost.
They don't plan to build the units, they plan to hand off or license the
design to manufacturers. I think the unit was designed for use in
remotely piloted and autonomous aircraft flying in US airspace. Someone
from Mitre will be giving an overview at the meeting at the SSA Convention
(see below for details).

However, there are many hurdles. The Mitre box is a transmitter only -
not a receiver - at least at this time. We need a unit that both
transmits and receives. I think FLARM's approach with a very simple user
interface is fantastic and I am encouraging manufacturers to built units
like the FLARM but using ADS-B. (Technically speaking FLARM is an ADS-B
device, but it doesn't match USA ADS-B design.) FLARM may even built an
ADS-B version - I really don't know. One reason for the meeting at the
SSA Convention is to bring together people from Mitre and companies that
may be interested in building units in the short term. Urs Rothacher from
FLARM will be at the meeting as will Jason Clemens - the creator of the
Zaon MRX. Another purpose of the meeting is to bring technology minded
glider pilots up to speed on the potential for these devices. Another
purpose is to have a crowd of glider pilots at the meeting to encourage
manufacturers to build these units.

Another potential hurdle is that the FAA may require that the units use
aviation certified GPS units and that the unit be certificated (I'm not
sure of the terminology) which would cost - a LOT. Our hope is that we
can get something FLARM like (low cost, simple, small, low power drain)
out into the hands of thousands of glider pilots and power plane pilots
quickly - hoping that the FAA will then accept them as a tremendous safety
enhancer. Very few people will buy $9000 units but many would buy $800 to
$1500 units - I think. Of course, the lower the cost the better. If we
are talking about equipping tens of thousands of general aviation planes
then we may be able to get the cost down into the range of the Zaon MRX at
about $500 - which would be even better.

My dream is that is 1 to 2 years from now many glider pilots will be
voluntarily using low cost ADS-B transmitter/receiver units. They will
show nearby traffic where you are AND they will allow you to see nearby
traffic - not only traffic that has an ADS-B transmitter. If you are near
a radar controlled airport with ADS-B transmitting you would also see all
traffic that has a transponder because they broadcast that information to
ADS-B receivers - cool! Then we can start promoting the benefits to
general aviation and ultra-light pilots through AOPA magazine and Sport
Aviation (EAA) magazine, etc. so that eventually small planes will start
using the technology voluntarily. To be honest - I sincerely hope that the
FAA mandates it in 10 years so I can see ALL traffic. I imagine I'm in
the minority on that wish. I hate mandates, but I love improved safety
and it will only work for us if everyone embraces it.

I think that is extremely exciting. Every report I've heard from FLARM
and Zaon MRX users is that there is much more traffic out there than they
realized and they like being warned about it. I want to know where other
traffic is! I want every other airplane to know where my glider is! The
icing on the cake is that I may be able to see on the moving map on my PDA
or flight computer nearby traffic and even their current climb rates. Of
course, we don't want everyone flying around with their heads down in the
cockpit - so we will need to be careful about how it is implemented. I
believe that ADS-B has greater range than FLARM so we may be able to see
gliders in thermals 10 miles ahead of us. I think that would be
wonderful.

If you think this is interesting I encourage you to join us for the "FLARM
/ ADS-B in the USA - A Meeting of Minds" meeting on Wednesday, February
13th in the Albuquerque Convention Center. It would make a better
impression on future manufacturers if we get a big turnout of interested
glider pilots.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

"Edward Lockhart" wrote in message
...
Paul,

I'd be very interested to hear more about these ADS-B
units.
Do you have some solid facts and how much are you allowed
to tell us?

cheers,
Edward

At 14:54 05 February 2008, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi,

I think we will see a lot of software and hardware
in the near future that
will allow us to see the climb rates of gliders in
our area. The rules
committee will have to figure out how to deal with
that. I don't see how
they can tell a pilot not to use their favorite soaring
software or their
FLARM (or similar device).

Telling them not to use their FLARM would be like asking
for a lawsuit
should they get into an accident. I don't think any
contest manager would
ever do that.

Also, it could be argued that seeing climb rates of
nearby gliders is a
safety enhancement because it can help you avoid a
landout - given than
landout is less safe then landing at an airport.

It will be very interesting to see how this develops.

Check out the image on my SeeYou page of the new FLARM
radar. I think it is
really cool! But I'm a techno-nerd...
http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/seeyou.htm

Certainly this is not much of an issue in the USA at
this time because very
few gliders are using FLARM here. But in a year or
2 we may have low cost
ADS-B units that will offer the same functionality
in SeeYou and other
software.

Like all new technologies I'm sure that some pilots
will embrace it and
others will not want themselves or others to use it.
But I'm pretty certain
that it is going to happen. I think it will increase
the level of safety and
fun.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

'Gary Emerson' wrote in message
. net...
Richard wrote:
WinPilot 9.0b Flarm

FLARM: Added ability to track several other gliders
in the vicinity
that also carry FLARM on board. WinPilot can now show
wisually the
position of the other gliders, their bearing, and
also indicate
weather or not they are climbing, and if so, what
their current climb
rate is.



Richard
www.craggyaero.com



Don't the rules prohibit any thermal detection system
that has a range
beyond the wingtip of the glider?? Seems like any
system that provides
location and climb rate is violating the INTENT of
the rule.

I completely agree that proximity detection is a benefit
to safety, but
I'll bet that unless the software programmers elect
to limit the data that
could be used to a competitive advantage on their
own that we'll
ultimately see new rules come into play that will
force that requirement.

Paul Remde wrote:
My dream is that is 1 to 2 years from now many glider pilots will be
voluntarily using low cost ADS-B transmitter/receiver units. They will show
nearby traffic where you are AND they will allow you to see nearby traffic -
not only traffic that has an ADS-B transmitter. If you are near a radar
controlled airport with ADS-B transmitting you would also see all traffic
that has a transponder because they broadcast that information to ADS-B
receivers - cool!

The situation is a bit more complicated than the dream, unfortunately.
Two aircraft equipped with ADS-B transceivers of the same type (UAT or
1090ES) will detect each other when within proximity, right now,
anywhere in the US. The ability to obtain traffic advisories for
aircraft equipped with the other form of ADS-B, or using Mode C or S
transponders, is dependent on the existence of a network of ground
stations. These ground stations are already in place along the coast
from New York down to Florida, in Alaska, and a few other random places.
The contracts to complete the system were just awarded last fall, it
will be 10+ years before all of the ground stations are in place.

So, for the next few years, an ADS-B transceiver will be nothing more
than an expensive underutilized FLARM-like device in most areas of the
US. That said, if we don't start pushing for what we want, right now,
we probably won't be happy with what we can get when the network is
complete in 2020 or so...

Marc