Would you pay money to see this plane?

For some time now, I've been thinking about building a replica of Ben
Epps' 1907 monoplane. For those of you not familiar with Georgia
aviation, this was the first plane built and flown in the state. Ben's
youngest son, Pat Epps, currently owns the big FBO at DeKalb-Peachtree
in Atlanta.

This page has a photo of the 1907. The website belongs to a friend of
mine:
http://www.hillfamily.org/david/aviation/Epps1924/

I happened to be showing my Wright machine in the Epps hangar one day
in 2003 when Pat aproached me. We talked for a few minutes about the
Wright gliders, and then I mentioned his father's 1907 machine. Pat
didn't seem too keen on the idea of a flying replica, but he did give
me a very good video about his father and family. He also personally
asked me not to try to fly the 1907 if I ever did build one.

SO, here's my question:
Would anyone, like say, airshow organizers, pay money to see this plane
if it is restricted to taxi passes and static displays?

Keep in mind, it was originally powered by a 1000cc Anzani v-twin. The
replica would be powered by a similar v-twin motorcycle engine, with
the loudest exhaust known to man. It would also incorporate a few
safety mods such as brakes, nosewheel steering, a better seat, and
reinforced joinery. Other than that, the idea would be to reproduce the
aircraft as closely as possible. No ailerons or double-surface wing,
etc.

Opinions welcome.

Harry

These are the types of displays that are almost always commissioned or
sponsored by an interested party, not the viewing public.

So, to answer your question, probably not. It would attract my interest
in a museum or public display, but I wouldn't pay to see it outside the
context of a museum with other aircraft.

I might possibly be addressing this subject in the wrong way, or to the
wrong audience. The main question was, Do you think airshow organizers
would pay to have this plane at an airshow?

A better question is: Well Mr. Frey, how many people would it draw to
our airshow?

I've got a few friends that are bikers. I'm going to shop the idea
around with them. If bikers think the Epps is cool and would go to an
airshow to see it, then so would the rednecks, monster truck fans, 10
year old boys, etc. Usually, the bulk of an airshow audience is
composed of these types, which seems to also explain the overabundance
of big-iron warbirds and jet-trucks at most airshows.

I'm thinking the Epps would probably sound something like this, only
louder:
http://www.hog-air.com/video.htm

Harry




T o d d P a t t i s t wrote:
"wright1902glider" wrote:

SO, here's my question:
Would anyone, like say, airshow organizers, pay money to see this plane
if it is restricted to taxi passes and static displays?

Opinions welcome.

I'm not an airshow organizer, but I've got an opinion :-)
Per the thread subject, I would not pay money just to see
this plane, but I would be more inclined to pay money to go
to an airshow that included this plane.

That said, I would not be interested in seeing a plane that
couldn't fly just taxi back and forth on the ground. It
would strike me as sad - like it had its wings clipped. I'd
enjoy up close and personal at a static display, so I could
see how the early designers dealt with various poorly
understood problems of flight, but in that case, I want
either a real antique aircraft, or an accurate reproduction,
without steerable wheels and brakes etc.
--
T o d d P a t t i s t
(Remove DONTSPAMME from address to email reply.)

Make a commitment to learn something from every flight.
Share what you learn.

wright1902glider wrote:
I might possibly be addressing this subject in the wrong way, or to the
wrong audience. The main question was, Do you think airshow organizers
would pay to have this plane at an airshow?

A better question is: Well Mr. Frey, how many people would it draw to
our airshow?

I've got a few friends that are bikers. I'm going to shop the idea
around with them. If bikers think the Epps is cool and would go to an
airshow to see it, then so would the rednecks, monster truck fans, 10
year old boys, etc. Usually, the bulk of an airshow audience is
composed of these types, which seems to also explain the overabundance
of big-iron warbirds and jet-trucks at most airshows.

I'm thinking the Epps would probably sound something like this, only
louder:
http://www.hog-air.com/video.htm

I think that even rednecks are gonna want to see the thing fly. Do
airshow organizers pay you to bring your glider? Do you fly your glider
in public? Would they pay you to display a non-flyable glider? I think
you are in a better position to answer your own questions than anyone else.
--
J Kimmel

www.metalinnovations.com

"Cuius testiculos habes, habeas cardia et cerebellum." - When you have
their full attention in your grip, their hearts and minds will follow.

"Flying" any aircraft built before 1910 and not designed by Wilbur &
Orivlle is tentative at best. Even their 1911 model B had some
qualities that would render it unrecoverable in certain situations.
Ditto the Bleriot and other European designs. Flying would by far be
the biggest stumbling block to the machine's commercial success. There
are FAA concerns, insurance, and the designer's family to consider, as
well as the original plane's lack of performance. Its best flight was
reported to be about 300 ft.

In regards to my 1902 glider, yes I do charge an appearance fee for
airshows, and unfortunately its a lot. I don't make much money, just
enough to cover what I loose by taking-off work from my day job on
Friday and Monday. The rest goes to insurance, fuel for the truck, and
maintenance on the glider. Mostly, it goes to insurance.

So far, the glider has made one public flight. It was unscheduled, and
lasted for 11 seconds before I was able to regain control of the
machine. It was scheduled to make public flights in Oct. 2002 at
Jockey's Ridge, but a series of construction delays, financial
concerns, and illnesses prevented us from making that deadline. I've
now moved to Colorado. Barring the descovery of a suitable local flying
site, the glider will remain grounded. Its going to be a while before
we get back to Kitty Hawk. No, I do not fly the glider at airshows.
This is beyond the capability of the glider. However, I do present a
20-minute show every 1/2 hour until noon on show days. And during the
show, I do demonstrate the flight control system that this machine
pioneered.

I posted the original thread on this newsgroup to determine if there
was enough interest to warrent a full marketing survey before starting
serious work on the Epps project. I'm rather surprised at the responses
I received. I had hoped that a few of the regulars from the group would
respond with well thought-out answers - either pro or con.

Harry Frey

So it turns out that:

You really do know far more about presenting a non-flying aircraft for
money than anybody else on this group.

You got three negative responses to your question, plus dozens more who
didn't even bother responding.

Are you satisfied now that there is not enough interest in the aircraft
to warrent even a market survey?

So I'll add my two bits: For the same amount of work and the same
amount of money you could build a flying airplane. Thousands of pre
1910 Bleriot and Demioselles were built and flown, many are still being
built and flown including a Rotec powered Bleriot near me being built at
the Evergreen museum in McMinnville. The basic layout of the Demoiselle
has been copied by many ultralight designs, including Epps-- the
difference being that the Demoiselle was a successful design while the
Epps probably wasn't, and probably isn't worth immortalizing.

For considerably less work and less money you could bolt a couple
"wings" on the side of a lawn tractor, add garbage can "afterburners"
and have youself an airshow display F-15 like the guy down in Albany,
Oregon. I really don't think a lawn tractor F-15 would be out of place
parked next to any other non-flying replica, but I doubt if he gets paid
to show up with that thing and I really wonder where he stores it. At
least he can use it to mow the lawn.


few of the regulars from the group would
respond with well thought-out answers - either pro or con.

Harry Frey



--
John Kimmel


GET YER STINKING PAWS OFF ME YOU DAMN DIRTY APE!

Well John,

Guess I'll have to call the fire department for that last one...

At the risk of fueling more of your flames:

Yeah. I'm probably the only guy on this group with a homebuilt that
actually makes money at airshows. Why does that make you so hostile?
I've been on this group since 2000 and I've never knowingly flamed
anyone. I've got a fair amount of respect for most of the posters here,
and a great amount of respect for a few select members that know a hell
of a lot more about aviation than I do. I had hoped to draw upon their
knowledge.

I didn't post this thread as some sort of idiot test or troll bait. I
simply wanted to know if anyone thought the concept was interesting
enough to persue. I have been, and remain very serious about this
subject. General consensus of the three opinions I received (including
yours): resounding NO. It needs to fly. Fine. Point taken. RAH wants to
see it fly, and a loud-ass engine isn't enough to make up for the fact
that it doesn't.

From a marketing perspective, that either means that the concept as
presented will be unsuccessful and needs to be modified, OR, the given
sample of opinions is either not large enough or does not represent the
consensus of the target market. Its fairly difficult to draw
conclusions based on three responses. Hence, my comment about surveying
my biker friends. It would probably be a good idea to have a "vote for
our next plane" box at a few airshows as well.

If I wanted to build and show a Bleroit, I'd build and show a Bleroit.
But its been done, with an original airframe and engine. No real need
for a replica unless you just want to. Ditto the Demoiselle. Far more
rare, but still, its been done. Both of those machines have also been
well documented. And if I just wanted to make cash on the airshow
circut, a converted T-58 bolted to a barstool racer would be hard to
beat. There's already a guy with a jet-powered outhouse that does quite
well.

I'm interested in building and showing machines that aren't famous but
should be. Ones that were built by men and women that used their brains
and worked their butts off. To me, how the machine performed is a lot
less important than telling the story, and illustrating it with wood
and cloth. Particularly, a story that inspires kids to try to do
something extraordinary.

When I exhibited at Hartsfield-Jackson airport, there was a large group
of inner-city kids that attended as part of a field trip. The first
question was: Did you build this? The second was: are you like an
engineer or something? The answer is, yes I did and no, I'm not an
engineer. I'm not anything special. I'm not even rich. I'm just a guy.
I built this plane in a borrowed garage, with basic tools, and paid for
it $20 at a time. It was hard, and many times I wanted to quit. It made
me cry, and it made me sick, and when I failed to finish it for the
expedition to Kitty Hawk in 2002, I failed in front of my family and my
girlfriend. They were all very mad at me for promising them a trip to
see a flying machine, but delivering nothing more than a pile of 1/2
finished parts in a trashed garage. But I sucked it up, and finished
the plane, and now its here for you to see. And that's what it was like
for the Wright Brothers too. They studied hard in school and used the
math and science that they learned in class to invent a machine. And it
didn't work. And they failed, and were embarassed and discouraged. But
they kept going, and figured it out. And any one of you can do
something like that too.

Unfortunately, I'm not wealthy enough (yet) to build powered aircraft
out of my own pocket. And yes, right now my choice of projects will be
strongly influenced by the plane's ability to pay for itself. If it
can't, then it won't be built for another few years. I'll continue on
with the Wright exhibit, making improvements where I can, and hopefully
inspiring a few kids along the way.

There's no need to respond to this thread anymore. I'm done.


Harry

("wright1902glider" wrote)
Unfortunately, I'm not wealthy enough (yet) to build powered aircraft out
of my own pocket. And yes, right now my choice of projects will be
strongly influenced by the plane's ability to pay for itself. If it
can't, then it won't be built for another few years. I'll continue on with
the Wright exhibit, making improvements where I can, and hopefully
inspiring a few kids along the way.

There's no need to respond to this thread anymore. I'm done.


Get back here!

Thanks. How about this...

(Apologies if this has been mentioned already)
Tow it behind a local Ford dealer's promotional vehicle. Go up and down the
runway. What would you need - 34 mph and a 100-ft rope?

There, now it flies.


Montblack

"wright1902glider" wrote in message
oups.com...
...
I'm interested in building and showing machines that aren't famous but
should be. Ones that were built by men and women that used their brains
and worked their butts off. To me, how the machine performed is a lot
less important than telling the story, and illustrating it with wood
and cloth. Particularly, a story that inspires kids to try to do
something extraordinary.

...

D00d, you are doing good work on a road that has to be tough to travel.

Wish I had some good suggestions, but I don't. Sorry.

--
Geoff
the sea hawk at wow way d0t com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
Spell checking is left as an excercise for the reader.