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#11
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"Dennis O'Connor" wrote
Basic rules for Class C is paragraph 3-2-4 of the AIM: 1. When controller responds WITH your tail number that is clearance to enter the class C airspace.. Dennis, the word "clearance" has specific meaning in aviation and NO clearance is required, nor given, for VFR a/c to enter Class C airspace. Quoting from the AIM: "1. If the controller responds to a radio call with, "(aircraft callsign) standby," radio communications have been established and the pilot can enter the Class C airspace." Bob Moore |
#13
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"Arden Prinz" wrote in message om... Recently I was departing a small airport (with no control tower) which was underneath the class C shelf area of a somewhat larger airport (which is an air force base). Immediately before departing, I called the approach controller for the class C airspace and told him that I was departing and would like flight following. I was actually hoping to fly straight over the larger airport (they weren't busy due to the time). The approach controller assigned me a transponder code and told me "after departure remain clear of the class C airspace". So after I took of, I started flying a route taking me around the class C area that extended to the surface. Well, the controller then called me by my tail number and asked some questions (I don't remember exactly what -- it might have been my expected cruising altitude and aircraft type, I think he may have also said radar contact, although I can't remember the specifics right now). As soon as this happened, I turned and headed directly toward my destination, taking me across the class C to the surface airspace. A fellow pilot was with me, and he later mentioned that thought I might have violated the controller's instructions. Hmmmm... That brings up a question --- when does the "remain clear of class C airspace" instruction end? I figured that since he called my by tail number and was clearly communicating with me and didn't assign any vectors or repeat his direction to remain clear, that it was now understood that I could enter. The controller didn't give any indication that I had done anything wrong, but I want to be sure that I understand this for the future. So ... if I'm told to remain clear in the future, WHEN does that end? It ends upon receipt of ATC instructions that permit entry. |
#14
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"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message .....when a class C controller calls your tail number, it is per the rules THE permission to enter unless he specifically instructs you to remain clear... I stand corrected. I didn't (and still don't) recall that detail, but then again, I never flew anything but IFR after about 1982. Doesn't sound like it makes much sense, to me, but if that's what's written..... |
#15
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"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message ... The basic thrust of your analysis is correct for most controlled airspace, John; but the clinker in the ashes here is that when a class C controller calls your tail number, it is per the rules THE permission to enter unless he specifically instructs you to remain clear... What the AIM does not make it clear is that after being told to stand clear, any subsequent tail number call, and especially with a phrase like, 'radar contact established', barometer setting, etc., is clearance to enter per the rule unless he repeats the instruction to remain clear, or assigns you a heading, etc.. The reason the AIM doesn't say that is because that's not the way it is. Once told to remain clear you must remain clear until receipt of an instruction that permits entry. |
#16
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"Dennis O'Connor" wrote in message ... Basic rules for Class C is paragraph 3-2-4 of the AIM: 1. When controller responds WITH your tail number that is clearance to enter the class C airspace.. 2. Exception to this rule is if the controller says, "Remain outside the class Charlie airspace and standby." he is expected/required to use that exact phrase Now, the rule not printed that I can see is the exact phrase for cancelling the remain clear instruction... So, per the Class C rules when the controller called you back the second time by 'tail number', and said, "radar contact established", etc., that was again establishing radio contact (per rule #1) and absent instructions to the contrary you are now cleared to enter the class C, and if he doesn't like your new heading, he will say so... Wrong. Once told to memain clear you must remain clear until the controller issues an instruction that permits entry. Therefore, you were cleared and did not bust any rules... I would have preferred that he said, cleared to enter my airspace, or the class c, etc., somewhere in his patter - obviously he understands rule #1 and expects you to also understand it... Once told to remain clear, entering without an explicit instruction that permitted entry, such as "proceed on course" or "fly heading xxx", would be a violation of FAR 91.123(b). |
#17
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"Brad Z" wrote in message news:B%4Xb.306189$na.460859@attbi_s04... How did you contact approach prior to departure, RCO, GCO, telephone? If so, he didn't know when you'd appear and didn't give you blanket authorization to enter. Because entry doesn't require an ATC clearance, you won't hear the words "cleared into..." or the like. For clarification, you could check-in on the frequency with something like "N12345 off podunk regional, 700 climbing for 3000, requesting overflight of Gunfire AFB, VFR to Distantville Airport. If that's approved, you're golden. In your scenario, after radar contact and 2-way comms in the air were established without any further instructions to remain clear, you got the green light. Wrong. He had been instructed to remain clear of the Class C airspace. He doesn't have the green light until that instruction is superseded. |
#18
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In article , Robert
Moore wrote: EDR wrote Class C: you have to establish two way radio contact and have permission. "Permission" is not acceptable air traffic control terminology. If I am not told to "remain clear", I CAN fly in Class C and D. I understand that. I went round and round with FAA HQ on this issue in the 1980's. Permission is the word they used. From there the arguement turned to what constituted permission. |
#19
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Steven,
Once told to memain clear you must remain clear until the controller issues an instruction that permits entry. I sort of thought that when the controller called me by tail number and said radar contact (and didn't say remain clear), that would constitute a communication that permits entry. But you wrote: ... entering without an explicit instruction that permitted entry, such as "proceed on course" or "fly heading xxx", would be a violation ... What determines which communications permit entry? Can you point me to a reference in the FAR or AIM? Do say "proceed on course", but how is that an explicit instruction to enter the class C airspace? I would think "cleared to enter class C airspace" would be an explicit instruction, but I certainly never hear that because I didn't think that was necessary for class C, only class B. I don't understand why you think "proceed on course" is an explicit instruction that permits entry. (It certainly wouldn't be explicit if we were talking about class B.) Again, a reference to something that would help be know exactly which communications constituted explicit instruction to enter vs. not would help me for the future. John Gaquin wrote: When you're talking about airspace entry, etc., pilot/controller interaction is *never* "understood", or "presumed". Clear and direct statements are used. .... When you hear the phrase '....cleared to enter...', or '....cleared into...', or some such. I keep my airplane at a class C airport and don't think I ever hear that type of language. When the controller calls my tail number and doesn't tell me to remain clear then it means that I can enter. John Harlow wrote: Lol - in my experience, either the airspace is too busy - or you sound like you could be a nuisance. I think it might be standard practice for this AFB. I don't think the airspace was busy. I guess they don't want people flying in until they can see them on their screens. I hope I didn't sound like a nuisance. John Harlow wrote: When you explicitly get permission to enter. I though when they called my tail number and didn't tell me to remain clear that was permission. Where is what I need to hear defined in the FAR or AIM? Maule Driver wrote: Did the controller contact the pilot after departure before the pilot called himself? The controller called me (my speculation is that he called me upon seeing me on his radar). Nathan Young wrote: Irrespective of regulations - it never hurts to ask the controller for clarification. I agree with you, but at the time it didn't occur to me that I needed any clarification. I heard my tail number and did not hear another remain clear and thought that meant I could enter. The ONLY reason that I questioned this was that my pilot friend who was on board questioned it first. And he said that he honestly didn't know, but believed that I should have heard something else before entering. Yes, I ask when I am confused about something ... but only if I realize that I am confused. :-) Anyway I prefer to get straightened out on these things on the ground when possible so that I don't have to continually quiz the controllers about things that I'm expected to know while in the air. Steven P. McNicoll: It ends upon receipt of ATC instructions that permit entry. Which are defined where? Thank-you! |
#20
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"Arden Prinz" wrote in message om... Steven, Once told to memain clear you must remain clear until the controller issues an instruction that permits entry. I sort of thought that when the controller called me by tail number and said radar contact (and didn't say remain clear), that would constitute a communication that permits entry. It does, unless the controller instructs you to remain clear of the Class C airspace, as was the case here. But you wrote: ... entering without an explicit instruction that permitted entry, such as "proceed on course" or "fly heading xxx", would be a violation ... What determines which communications permit entry? Can you point me to a reference in the FAR or AIM? Do say "proceed on course", but how is that an explicit instruction to enter the class C airspace? I would think "cleared to enter class C airspace" would be an explicit instruction, but I certainly never hear that because I didn't think that was necessary for class C, only class B. I don't understand why you think "proceed on course" is an explicit instruction that permits entry. (It certainly wouldn't be explicit if we were talking about class B.) Again, a reference to something that would help be know exactly which communications constituted explicit instruction to enter vs. not would help me for the future. The last instruction issued by ATC in this case was "remain clear of the Class C airspace. That instruction remains in effect until overridden by another instruction. How can it be any other way? If you were IFR and assigned eight thousand, at what point can you descend to six thousand? |
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