AT, TAT, MAT?

On Oct 11, 11:30*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
Thanks all,

This may sound egotistical, but when I'm alone or with one or two
other gliders I'm pretty confident my thermaling skills are above-
average (I admit that I still need work in gaggles). *I tend to circle
a little bit faster than some folks (usually 48 - 50 knots in my
DG-300), but I turn at a tight 45 - 50 degree bank angle - never less
(narrow thermals here in the west). *Doing the math on load factors at
various bank-angles, and given my min-sink speed of about 42 knots, I
think this thermaling speed may be about right (despite some "advice"
that I should be circling slower). *The glider certainly doesn't
"groove" through the turns as well when I really try to slow it up and
fly in the mid-to-lower 40's at these bank angles. *BTW, I don't
credit my climb capabilities to talent or anything; I just got started
flying in a place where 1 - 2 knot lift was the norm, and cloudbases
are typically around 3000'. *If you want to get anywhere in those
conditions, you *cannot* miss a climb or lose a thermal!

I just got "Winning II" last night, and I'm glad to hear someone with
John's experience discount Moffat's thermal entry technique. *The
vario swings due to TE compensation and the sudden/aerobatic thermal
entry at 80+ knots seems like it would make it incredibly hard to
judge what the thermal strength truly is (in addition to the safety
issues if you rocket up farther than expected and wind up smack in the
middle of a gaggle that's already circling).

Oh, and unless I'm really low I _never_ make S turns and hunt. :-) *I
usually have 2 "targets" in mind when I set out on each inter-thermal
glide; a primary thermal marker (or best guess) and a backup somewhere
beyond it along my course-line. *I try to only slow down and hunt if I
hit bumps or other evidence of lift where I'm already expecting it at
these target-points. *But sometimes I feel like I've bypassed a good
thermal along the way (perhaps better than the one I'll find at my
target area). *Like I said in my earlier post, occasionally I try for
these "good bumps" - and get skunked most of the time. *And the cost
of slowing down, turning a circle (even just one) for no gain, and
then speeding back up is just HUGE.

I just don't know if the "cure" is to avoid circling at all in these
situations, or if there are better ways to determine if the lift is
big enough or good enough to work without actually throwing in a
circle.

Thanks for the tip on downloading race flights/IGC files. *I've been
meaning to do that, now its time I actually follow through!

Take care,

--Noel

Try this
http://www.coloradosoaring.org/think...calculator.htm

Frank

Hi Noel

John is right on thermalling techniques.
Aerobatics are inefficient - Agreed. But if the question is - when I hit a thermal at 80kt what do I do? Then the only
way to enter the thermal will be to pull hard to slow down while you are still in the lift.

Here's a one time world champion having a difficult day.

http://www.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0...ghtId=43802292

Observe how Oscar looks for lift, and also how precise his flying is when he finds it.


BB wrote:
5) When to turn: This is still a big one for me. I am developing a
good "butt-meter" when it comes to detecting and centering lift when
I'm flying along slowly or already circling. At my typical cruise-
speed of ~80 knots I find it MUCH harder! Either I stop and turn for
a big bump that isn't workable (just a gust or something ragged); or I
blow through the lift by the time I realize its big enough to use, and
I don't think its worthwhile to try to turn back around to find it.
At least I know I'm not the only one who sometimes dolphin-flies and
pulls up in the sink on the far side because of vario lag... *sigh*


In my current thinking this is about the most important thing in
contest success. Maybe the only thing. The good pilots find and center
good lift. It all comes down to thermaling. When I do badly it is
because I missed thermals that better pilots found. I write all these
MacCready articles and such, but my big focus is just on going back to
basics and thermaling better.

By and large, you don't find lift at 80 kts dry (90+ wet). You slow
down in the bumpy air that indicates there is a thermal around here
somewhere, take S turns, sniff around like a dog looking for a hidden
bone, (Forget all that Moffat mid 70s stuff about aerobatic thermal
entries. That happens occasionally, but really rarely) LOOK LOOK LOOK
out the window for cloud shapes, birds, chaff, gliders, or any other
clue, and learn to recognize all those great feelings in your butt,
You want to recognize the feeling that is a thermal, not a gust; to
know that if you turn you will turn into increasing lift, and not the
dreaded sink. You're trying not to ever go past 45 degrees off course
unless you KNOW the lift will be there all the way around.


Of course, you're rock steady in attitude control, thermaling at
exactly the right airspeed.

John Cochrane.

Now if BB says you need to sniff around like a dog, you need to sniff
around like a dog. He gave you a book worth of advise and it went
right over your head.
First learn the pilot, and then ask yourself the right questions. Like
why would a top racer advise to "sniff around like a dog"?
The answer to that question started 56 miles back when he started his
351 L/D leg to a location that would produce good "huntin".
And in this business, you ain't sh't unless you can "hunt".
There are four other gems he put in there that require some study.
Racing is easy. Racing good is a lucky day. Racing good consistently
is simply rare talent. To advance to must get out on course and hope
for such talent to come along to allow you draft in his magic, seeing
for yourself what can be done.
What you know now is only enough to get out on course.
R

At 22:33 11 October 2008, BB wrote:


In my current thinking this is about the most important thing in
contest success. Maybe the only thing. The good pilots find and center
good lift. It all comes down to thermaling. When I do badly it is
because I missed thermals that better pilots found. I write all these
MacCready articles and such, but my big focus is just on going back to
basics and thermaling better.

By and large, you don't find lift at 80 kts dry (90+ wet). You slow
down in the bumpy air that indicates there is a thermal around here
somewhere, take S turns, sniff around like a dog looking for a hidden
bone, (Forget all that Moffat mid 70s stuff about aerobatic thermal
entries. That happens occasionally, but really rarely) LOOK LOOK LOOK
out the window for cloud shapes, birds, chaff, gliders, or any other
clue, and learn to recognize all those great feelings in your butt,
You want to recognize the feeling that is a thermal, not a gust; to
know that if you turn you will turn into increasing lift, and not the
dreaded sink. You're trying not to ever go past 45 degrees off course
unless you KNOW the lift will be there all the way around.

Of course, you're rock steady in attitude control, thermaling at
exactly the right airspeed.

John Cochrane.

Once again Mr Cochrane gets right to the heart of things. Copy and paste
the above to a preflight cockpit card.

That is the underlying *cause* of the top pilots being so fast - one
resultant *effect* of this is that they can afford to cruise faster, take
fewer thermals and, when it is right to do so, go lower than the likes of
me.

George Moffat's brilliant, but IMHO much misunderstood, article on low
loss flying article showed how one pilot could theoretically beat another
substantially by using various optimisations of technique. However it
often seems to be forgotten that the article was predicated on the stated
assumption that the two contest pilots were flying equally optimal routes
and climbing equally etc. For the learner a far bigger benefit comes from
flying in the right place at the right time.

John Galloway

On Oct 12, 4:00*am, " wrote:
Now if BB says you need to sniff around like a dog, you need to sniff
around like a dog. He gave you a book worth of advise and it went
right over your head.
First learn the pilot, and then ask yourself the right questions. Like
why would a top racer advise to "sniff around like a dog"?
The answer to that question started 56 miles back when he started his
351 L/D leg to a location that would produce good "huntin".
And in this business, you ain't sh't unless you can "hunt".
There are four other gems he put in there that require some study.
Racing is easy. Racing good is a lucky day. Racing good consistently
is simply rare talent. To advance to must get out on course and hope
for such talent to come along to allow you draft in his magic, seeing
for yourself what can be done.
What you know now is only enough to get out on course.
R

New contest pilot is like a new sponge. Needs to get wrung out a few
times before it becomes fully absorbent.

This has gone pretty far afield from the OP, but...

Interesting to me how many guys (XX, DJ, BB, others...) are finally
talking about the intuitive aspects of competition soaring and giving
them the weight they always (imo) deserved. Those are slippery
topics. Hard to discuss, harder to teach. About all you can do is
put the new guy on alert for what to look for.

It's been obvious for a long time that these guys -- and their less
talkative racing peers -- weren't winning because they were better at
MacCready speed to fly, thermaling aerobatics or even flying skills in
general. Knowledge and skill set are necessary, but secondary. The
real deal is the ability -- consistently -- to make the intuitive leap
of understanding. It's a beautiful thing to watch when someone gets
it right.

-T8

Hi Noel,

You probably arent' finding a lot of information on strategy because
it is really too simple to warrant a book and it is different for
different people and skill levels. And the guys that are really good
at aren't telling.

My rookie contest strategy is this.

Start as soon as practical. This puts me in near the most gliders or
ahead of them. This way I can use them for markers as long as possible
as they pass me.

For Minimum Time tasks try to fly the task as close the minimum time
without going under time as possible. This give me the least amount of
time to make a bad decision and have to dig myself out of a hole. I
found out later that there is mathematical advantange to flying close
the the minimum time.

Only be concerned about distance points if it is very likely that you
can not complete the task.

Brian
HP16T N16VP.

On Oct 9, 9:23*pm, "noel.wade" wrote:
All -

Does anyone know of any good books or articles on the nuts-and-
bolts */ common-strategies of how to fly the various competition task
types?

I'm still waiting on my copy of Winning II, but Reichmann and
Brigliadori don't really touch on these and the competition rules only
define what the tasks ARE, not how to approach flying them...

I haven't yet been able to find any good reading material (other than
the SRA 2005 Comp Guide) on how to approach the different task types -
anyone have any recommendations?

BTW, I've read some of the different rules documents, and it may be
that I don't fully understand the scoring system... the big question-
marks in my mind relate to speed points vs. distance points, and their
trade-offs. *For example: when is it worthwhile to push for extra
distance, even if it might hurt the average speed you have going (so
far) during a task?

Thanks, take care,

--Noel

Many good points made here. Some I agree with, some not. But the
bottom line still is to get out on course and learn by watching. One
good way to do this without actually entering a contest is to free fly
during a contest and just follow the crowd. I was able to be a
sniffer at a National Sports Contest some years back and it was the
best thing I ever did. It got to the point that I could( I thought
anyway) almost tell what pilot was thinking by watching him fly.
Don't worry about "leeching". How else are you supposed to learn?
The good pilots don't care anyway. The point is that these
discussions are fine for the winter and a good place to start, but I
promise that the cliche' is true. You will learn more in one day in
a good race than in all this discussion. And most of it you won't even
know you learned. The best stuff can't be put into words. Not to say
the discussion isn't necessary, but it's my belief that things can be
over analysed. I once read a article by a senior instructor at the
Top Gun school that always stuck with me. His opinion was that the
best fighter pilots were not the officers that were the engineering
students, constantly analysing information. The very best were the
liberal arts majors, who were much more intuitive. True or not, I
have no idea, but an interesting proposition! The sponge analogy is
very apt. TM

Just a clarification for those that might be mis-interpreting some of
my comments: I'm not dismissing information or ignoring it or having
it go "over my head"... I just never stop asking questions or digging
for deeper understanding - sometimes in new directions, sometimes by
trying to refine previous answers or by trying to define special cases
or exceptions to general rules. :-)

Thanks for the continuing good info,

--Noel

What skills do we need to fly a MAT or TAT? As you know it's a wormy
little problem involving several variables; time, distance, altitude
required, wind, speed-to-fly and where's the stinking lift? We are
required to choose the final-turn point (or point-to-turn in a TAT) so
that the final leg will consume the rest of the alloted time with
sufficient altitude to traverse the remaining distance home into an
unknown wind and get there on time! These tasks involve a very
difficult navigation problem; Controlled ETA to a destination in an
aircraft with no visable means of support. Wow! I don't know how we
do it and frankly I couldn't do it very well without my trusty SN-10.
It gives me reliable winds and a running display of time remaining,
distance remaining and altitude required to finish any task I have
dialed in. How do we get better at flying TAT's and MAT's? Practice,
Practice, Practice, and get the best airborne computer available, not
cheap but worth every penny.
JJ

noel.wade wrote:
Just a clarification for those that might be mis-interpreting some of
my comments: I'm not dismissing information or ignoring it or having
it go "over my head"... I just never stop asking questions or digging
for deeper understanding - sometimes in new directions, sometimes by
trying to refine previous answers or by trying to define special cases
or exceptions to general rules. :-)

Thanks for the continuing good info,

--Noel

Just one more comment. The thing that makes the top pilots so good is
the ability to adapt the or even predict the conditions. They know
when to go fast and the know when not to. They know when they can get
low and when they shouldn't. How they do this is just basic soaring
skills but they somehow do it better than the 2nd place guy. I have
yet heard anyone explain how they do this consistantly. I suspect it
is just years of experience.

How to come in at the back of the pack I am a much better expert at,
but it is the same things that will put you there. Falling out of the
lift band and having to climb back up in the 1 knot thermal after
passing up the 4 knot thermal will lose you a lot of time. And staying
high and stopping often in really strong conditions with a large lift
band will cause you to fall behind as well. As you can see what works
one day may not work the next or even from one hour to the next. The
pilot that can shift gears at the right time and fly both of these
conditions best on the same day will win the day. The pilot that can
adapt on a consistant basis will win the contest.

The math of getting around the couse fast is pretty simple. Fly the
McCready numbers for the conditions and you will do well. You will do
excellent if you can fly the McCready speed for the next thermal
instead of the last one. Of course there is some art to find the
thermals as well.

Brian