My first flight in a glider... finally!

On Oct 28, 1:45*pm, Pete Smith wrote:
At 18:49 28 October 2008, st4s03 wrote:





On Oct 28, 7:21=A0am, Andreas Maurer *wrote:
53 kts is the perfect approach speed for the G-103 (stall speed 39
kts) with calm winds - how fast would you fly the approach?
http://ras.gliderpilot.net/?op=a1&id=68531
Bye
Andreas

I fly the pattern in a 103 with 2 people at 60kts in calm air and
faster in wind. Stall speed with spoilers closed on a =93new=94 ship
with
perfect wings was listed at 39kts. With spoilers extended that goes to
43kts. Now ad 25 years of exposure to the elements and that figure may
go up by a couple of knots. Then bank 35 degrees from base to final
with spoilers open and 2 big guys in the cockpit and you may be close
to 50kts. Then hit a thermal gust, or shear of 10kts, or the lower
wing goes into wind gradient and at 53kts airspeed you are looking at
the ground. Maybe I'm too cautious but I' still alive.

Look up what the yellow triangle on the asi means in the flight manual.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It means "Approach Speed at Max Weight". Short final approach speed is
different than pattern speed in my book. I am referring to speed
through the pattern.

Congratulations on your first glider ride!

If you don't have it already, get a copy of Condor
(www.condorsoaring.com) and learn to fly with it. Since you have
rudder pedals, turn off the auto-coordination, and you'll get a very
realistic soaring simulator.

Regards,

Frank (TA)



When I arrived home I installed a set of rudder pedals on my simulator
and practiced winch launches, coordinated turns, and landings all
night long.

I've also planned out a budget so I can start my flying lessons. *I
guess that means I am hooked.

I posted some pictures hehttp://www.floridakiteboarder.com/soaring/1/

-tom

Less perfect wings (rougher) generally have a softer stall, as they have more turbulent flow.

My math says 53-39 = 14kt = 36% margin between stall and yellow triangle.

If you add a wind component - even if the wind is a really interesting 20kt and you add 50% of wind you are still at
63kt. Assume I am unwise enough to be in a 30 degee bank with full airbrake in known turbulence, and a 20kt wind, again,
simple math says 63-43 = 20kt. So even in a worst case it would take a reversal of wind direction of greater than 2*20kt
- or 40kt difference from the established wind to stall a wing. Anything that can produce that is going to be more than
you can overcome with control input. The only place I can see this being a consideration would be where there is rotor
touching the ground, in which case you are in so much trouble already, you may as well have as much energy as possible
until you are on the ground.

From a safety point of view the idea of turning base or final with full airbrake deployed is not something I would
advocate. We teach that you should not have to use full brake on approach - it is an indication that your energy is too
high. Now you have used all of the available control and limited options.

The G103 has enormous airbrakes, and you can get rid of the energy. Try that in something really slippery like a Duo
Discus and you are in the HELP - High Energy Landing Problem (Or other rhyming words). Done that too - far better to
have the right energy level, even when the ground wind is high.

My 2c worth.
Bruce

st4s03 wrote:
On Oct 28, 1:45 pm, Pete Smith wrote:
At 18:49 28 October 2008, st4s03 wrote:





On Oct 28, 7:21=A0am, Andreas Maurer wrote:
53 kts is the perfect approach speed for the G-103 (stall speed 39
kts) with calm winds - how fast would you fly the approach?
http://ras.gliderpilot.net/?op=a1&id=68531
Bye
Andreas
I fly the pattern in a 103 with 2 people at 60kts in calm air and
faster in wind. Stall speed with spoilers closed on a =93new=94 ship
with
perfect wings was listed at 39kts. With spoilers extended that goes to
43kts. Now ad 25 years of exposure to the elements and that figure may
go up by a couple of knots. Then bank 35 degrees from base to final
with spoilers open and 2 big guys in the cockpit and you may be close
to 50kts. Then hit a thermal gust, or shear of 10kts, or the lower
wing goes into wind gradient and at 53kts airspeed you are looking at
the ground. Maybe I'm too cautious but I' still alive.
Look up what the yellow triangle on the asi means in the flight manual.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

It means "Approach Speed at Max Weight". Short final approach speed is
different than pattern speed in my book. I am referring to speed
through the pattern.

On Oct 28, 10:46*pm, Bruce wrote:
We teach that you should not have to use full brake on approach - it
is an indication that your energy is too high. Now you have used all
of the available control and limited options.

Every glider I ever flew allowed a large increase in sink rate
compared to full spoiler/airbrakes if a slip was also used, so I don't
agree that all available control is used when the airbrakes are full
open. Several times I have used full airbrakes and full rudder slip
to get my energy down to a partial brake approach. I practice that at
the start of every season. Using full airbrake for all the approach
does not indicate energy is too high as long as the glider touches
down at the intended point at minimum energy. Being able to fly a
full brake, full slip approach may save your glider on the day you are
faced with a small field with high obstacles on the approach.

So, while it's nice to fly a half airbrake approach to a touchdown at
the intended point, it's also good to have the skill to fly very steep
approaches and full airbrake is not usually the limit.

Andy

Congratulations Tom, it is easy to get hooked and after your lessons
are done you will want your own glider after you have transitioned
through the fleet so start a fund for that as well.

My story is like many others.

Got hooked when I was 7.

I still have an affection for the Diamant even though I never flew
one, but it was the first one I ever saw up close and the owner was
very kind and showed me all the controls.

Dad sent me up on a ride way back then in a 2-33 and it made me a bit
sick with all the circling but I was hooked non the less.

I got dad to buy me a few more rides over the years, then life got
busy, school, work, family etc.

When I hit 35 I decided to budget for it and did it.

Once I got divorced(Not flying related) things really took off since I
had my time and money available again.

Now at 48 I own 2 motor gliders, a regular glider, a paraglider and an
Ultralight.

When it moves from hobby to compulsion I suppose that is what
happens. ;-)

Ray

It's been a week since I've checked on this thread, thanks for the
replies.

The spoilers and landing airspeed discussion was interesting and I
understand what the concerns are regarding the final turn+spoilers+low
speed (and possibly momentary tail wind) = stall. Wind on this day
was 4 knots or less on average.

My next flight is this Sunday and I am greatly looking forward to it.
Naturally the more I learn the less I can stop thinking about it.

Yes, I do fly in Condor (simulator) often. I have started using rudder
pedals and disabled the twist control for the rudder. I have been
practicing winch launches (fun) and stall and stall spin recovery, and
landings. I will soon find out if I have taught myself bad habits! I
have been doing a lot of reading (glider flying handbook) and watching
a lot of videos of other's glider lessons (many found on youtube).
Lately I have been avoiding tow ups because I do not want to learn bad
habits for dealing with slack in the rope, etc.

Yellow Triangle = lowest recommended approach speed at max weight
without water ballast, correct?

I have been searching google but am unable to find the steps in which
a student generally progresses through lessons. For example, trim for
speed, coordinated turns, stall recovery, landing, takeoff, etc. I am
sure this varies depending on student and instructor, but it would be
nice to know which things I should be practicing in the simulator for
my next few flying lessons.

Thanks
-tom

At 18:11 07 November 2008, vic20owner wrote:
It's been a week since I've checked on this thread, thanks for the
replies.

The spoilers and landing airspeed discussion was interesting and I
understand what the concerns are regarding the final turn+spoilers+low
speed (and possibly momentary tail wind) = stall. Wind on this day
was 4 knots or less on average.

My next flight is this Sunday and I am greatly looking forward to it.
Naturally the more I learn the less I can stop thinking about it.

Yes, I do fly in Condor (simulator) often. I have started using rudder
pedals and disabled the twist control for the rudder. I have been
practicing winch launches (fun) and stall and stall spin recovery, and
landings. I will soon find out if I have taught myself bad habits! I
have been doing a lot of reading (glider flying handbook) and watching
a lot of videos of other's glider lessons (many found on youtube).
Lately I have been avoiding tow ups because I do not want to learn bad
habits for dealing with slack in the rope, etc.

Yellow Triangle = lowest recommended approach speed at max weight
without water ballast, correct?


Absolutely correct for anything designed according to modern European
standards. Older stuff or non-Euro gliders may not have this marking.


I have been searching google but am unable to find the steps in which
a student generally progresses through lessons. For example, trim for
speed, coordinated turns, stall recovery, landing, takeoff, etc. I am
sure this varies depending on student and instructor, but it would be
nice to know which things I should be practicing in the simulator for
my next few flying lessons.

Thanks
-tom


That's a reasonable syllabus; get used to handling the glider safely in
the air before doing too much close to the ground. Once you can land then
expect to be taught pattern/circuit planning, spin avoidance & recovery
and, if learning at a winch site, plenty of launch failures.

Have fun,
Edward

Tom

Check out the following site:
http://skylinesoaring.org/TRAINING/Syllabus/

Lots of good training info.

Bob

Thanks guys. I flew twice more over the weekend (Blanik L23) and
landed both times (instructor handled the air brakes and talked me
through it), and spent some time on the tow during the 2nd flight
starting at around 500'. I had a great time and learned a lot.