Gliders and Transponders......again.

On Jan 24, 10:00*am, Jim White wrote:
At 04:08 24 January 2009, Eric Greenwell wrote:

I'm also skeptical of the "in the pipeline" claim, unless that means
"I've heard of some stuff that could do the job but it's not even on
it's way *to certification because there aren't even any specifications
for it yet".

Why is progress always seen as impossible?

http://www.mitre.org/work/tech_paper...34/07_0634.pdf

Jim

Why? Because in the USA there is huge existing infrastructure
including SSR, TCAS-II equipped aircraft and even down to PCAS that
UAT's sort of turns on its head. Then more recently there is
competition for data services from XM weather, Iridium, etc. and
security/hacking concerns with UATs (want to shut down huge parts of
some airspace with a transmitter and a laptop spoofing aircraft all
over the place? - supposedly one reason some of the Australian
adoption slowed down.). Then there is regulation/bureaucracy that has
to catch up with possible technology changes. While ADS-B promises a
lot people keep blurring the ADS-B-out capabilities like the Mitre low-
end prototype UAT and all the things like ADS-B-in with TIS-B/FIS-B
etc. that it cannot do.

Meanwhile Mode-S transponder technology with 1090ES for ADS-B keeps
getting smaller, less power consumption, etc. With Europe taking the
lead (ironically by largely dragging their feet on anything besides
1090ES). I'd expect to see continuing competition in the 1090ES space.
Like the impressive looking Trig TT21 transponder. I fly with a Mode-C
now, which does me fine. UATs have no appeal to me for the foreseeable
future for where I fly in high traffic areas, and if I had to I'd
rather pay $2,000 or so for a Mode-S 1090ES unit that is fully
compatible with existing infrastructure than $500 or $1,000 (at a
guess) for something that is not (and has anybody seen pricing yet on
an ADS-B UAT?). In future UATs hold some advantages, including better
uplink data, better coverage, etc. but I would not hold my breath that
early or low-cost units will offer anything above what you can do with
1090ES. Building a box is relatively easy, changing infrastructure is
not.


Darryl

Jim White wrote:
At 04:08 24 January 2009, Eric Greenwell wrote:
I'm also skeptical of the "in the pipeline" claim, unless that means
"I've heard of some stuff that could do the job but it's not even on
it's way to certification because there aren't even any specifications

for it yet".


Why is progress always seen as impossible?

http://www.mitre.org/work/tech_paper...34/07_0634.pdf

I'm aware of MITRE's efforts and applaud them, but can you tell me where
the MITRE unit is in the certification process? If not, then is it fair
to say "in the pipeline" means "I've heard of some stuff that could do
the job but it's not even on it's way to certification because there
aren't even any specifications for it yet"?

I hope I'm wrong. I'd love to offer people an alternative to
transponders that features low cost, low power, and can display traffic
information on their Ipaq, but my understanding of the situation is we
have no idea when or even if this type of unit will be available for
sale, or what they will cost.

For an idea of how far we are from having MITRE type units on our
favorite soaring supplier's shelf, take a look at what is available now:
the $7000 Garmin GDL-90.

Right now, a MITRE style unit is more "pipe dream" than "pipeline", and
the reason I'm making such a big deal about this it I'm concerned people
that really should be using a transponder, or at least an MRX, will
think they can wait a year or two and buy one of these things. The
reality is this kind of thing can take far longer to arrive than we hope.

When I bought my mode C transponder in 2001, there were people that
decided they would wait for those new mode S European units that were
going to be available "real soon now" because they would cost less and
use half the power. They are still waiting.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
* Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

* Updated! "Transponders in Sailplanes" http://tinyurl.com/y739x4
* New Jan '08 - sections on Mode S, TPAS, ADS-B, Flarm, more

* "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 04:08:16 +0000, Eric Greenwell wrote:

In the USA, the only thing with national coverage is transponders. ADS-B
is available in some parts of the country, but the only general aviation
"solution" is the GDL-90 from Garmin. It's the size of a shoebox, weighs
6 pounds, draws 1.75 amps on 12 volts, and costs $7000 (installation
extra). Makes a transponder seem like free candy.

Another oddity - it quotes the MX20 as its (only?) compatible panel
display/control unit, but look that up on the Garmin website and you'll
find its labeled Obsolete - Discontinued. What do9es that tell us about
the viability of the GDL-90?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 03:43:06 +0000, Eric Greenwell wrote:

You aren't going to be able talk any of them into ..... becoming good
lookers, are you?

Darn right! You can talk at them all you want and at the end they'll
still be DAMNED UGLY.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

It is about proportion

In the UK CAT generally flies in controlled airspace, gliders do not.

Gliders do occasionally fly in class D airspace where they are
'controlled' by ATC and are therefore 'known'

Gliders do occasionally fly in class C airspace in clearly defined wave
boxes or TRAGs.

For the last 60 years gliders have crashed into gliders but not into CAT.
There has been one occasion when power flew into a circling glider but I
guess he was looking at his instruments (or adjusting his mode S?).

The reason the suits want to mandate transponders is so that they can
allow their CAT friends (and backers) to fly more in class G airspace
without the need for lengthy and costly acrimonious consultations on
increased reserved airspace.

The likelihood of a CAT on glider mid air remains low if CAT stay
controlled and gliders stay out of controlled airspace. With a reduction
in CAT due to economic and fuel woes as well as environmental pressure
means we do have time to develop an effective low cost low power
alternative to Mode S. Perhaps 60 years.

Jim

ps: how do you put a transponder in a Hutter? or a paraglider?

On Jan 24, 12:31*pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 04:08:16 +0000, Eric Greenwell wrote:
In the USA, the only thing with national coverage is transponders. ADS-B
is available in some parts of the country, but the only general aviation
"solution" is the GDL-90 from Garmin. It's the size of a shoebox, weighs
6 pounds, draws 1.75 amps on 12 volts, and costs $7000 (installation
extra). Makes a transponder seem like free candy.

Another oddity - it quotes the MX20 as its (only?) compatible panel
display/control unit, but look that up on the Garmin website and you'll
find its labeled Obsolete - Discontinued. What do9es that tell us about
the viability of the GDL-90?
[snip]

The GDL-90 UAT will display stuff on the GMX-200 (replacement of the
old MX-20), 400 and 500 series GPS units, the GPSNAV 396 and 496
portables etc. and I believe the G1000 etc. but. But as with
everything the devil is in the details of device firmware version, and
exactly display of what ADS-B data is supported (e.g. TIS, FIS etc.)
Now whether anybody would bother is another question. If I was
throwing down money for a new aircraft or glass panel upgrade now (and
it would primarily be Garmin glass) it would have a Mode-S
transponder, the GDL69A for XM Weather and maybe an Avidyne TAS600
traffic system. I'd also use the TIS traffic support in the SF Bay
Area since it effectively comes for free with the higher end Garmin
transponders even if TIS is on the way out. The GDL-90 UAT would be of
no interest. Garmin's most recent mention of ADS-B on their web site
is to talk about 1090ES upgrades for their Mode-S transponders not UAT
technology.

Darryl

The low cost MITRE ADS-B transceiver that was demo'd at the AOPA Expo a
couple of months ago, provides all of the ADS-B In functionality, including
traffic & weather. The only major stumbling block in getting this design
available commercially are certification issues around the use of consumer
grade GPS components that are required to make the unit affordable for a GA
market.

1090ES will probably not work as envisioned for ADS-B. While the Europeans
have decided to standardize on this (as has the US for Jet traffic), there
are serious questions on whether the bandwidth is adequate for high traffic
environments like NY, Atlanta, and LA. I suspect that in the end, UAT will
be the universal solution.

Mike Schumann

"Darryl Ramm" wrote in message
...
On Jan 24, 10:00 am, Jim White wrote:
At 04:08 24 January 2009, Eric Greenwell wrote:

I'm also skeptical of the "in the pipeline" claim, unless that means
"I've heard of some stuff that could do the job but it's not even on
it's way to certification because there aren't even any specifications
for it yet".

Why is progress always seen as impossible?

http://www.mitre.org/work/tech_paper...34/07_0634.pdf

Jim

Why? Because in the USA there is huge existing infrastructure
including SSR, TCAS-II equipped aircraft and even down to PCAS that
UAT's sort of turns on its head. Then more recently there is
competition for data services from XM weather, Iridium, etc. and
security/hacking concerns with UATs (want to shut down huge parts of
some airspace with a transmitter and a laptop spoofing aircraft all
over the place? - supposedly one reason some of the Australian
adoption slowed down.). Then there is regulation/bureaucracy that has
to catch up with possible technology changes. While ADS-B promises a
lot people keep blurring the ADS-B-out capabilities like the Mitre low-
end prototype UAT and all the things like ADS-B-in with TIS-B/FIS-B
etc. that it cannot do.

Meanwhile Mode-S transponder technology with 1090ES for ADS-B keeps
getting smaller, less power consumption, etc. With Europe taking the
lead (ironically by largely dragging their feet on anything besides
1090ES). I'd expect to see continuing competition in the 1090ES space.
Like the impressive looking Trig TT21 transponder. I fly with a Mode-C
now, which does me fine. UATs have no appeal to me for the foreseeable
future for where I fly in high traffic areas, and if I had to I'd
rather pay $2,000 or so for a Mode-S 1090ES unit that is fully
compatible with existing infrastructure than $500 or $1,000 (at a
guess) for something that is not (and has anybody seen pricing yet on
an ADS-B UAT?). In future UATs hold some advantages, including better
uplink data, better coverage, etc. but I would not hold my breath that
early or low-cost units will offer anything above what you can do with
1090ES. Building a box is relatively easy, changing infrastructure is
not.


Darryl

Be wary of 1090ES. There are no traffic or weather uploads unless you use
UAT for ADS-B.

Mike Schumann

"Darryl Ramm" wrote in message
...
On Jan 24, 12:31 pm, Martin Gregorie
wrote:
On Sat, 24 Jan 2009 04:08:16 +0000, Eric Greenwell wrote:
In the USA, the only thing with national coverage is transponders. ADS-B
is available in some parts of the country, but the only general aviation
"solution" is the GDL-90 from Garmin. It's the size of a shoebox, weighs
6 pounds, draws 1.75 amps on 12 volts, and costs $7000 (installation
extra). Makes a transponder seem like free candy.

Another oddity - it quotes the MX20 as its (only?) compatible panel
display/control unit, but look that up on the Garmin website and you'll
find its labeled Obsolete - Discontinued. What do9es that tell us about
the viability of the GDL-90?
[snip]

The GDL-90 UAT will display stuff on the GMX-200 (replacement of the
old MX-20), 400 and 500 series GPS units, the GPSNAV 396 and 496
portables etc. and I believe the G1000 etc. but. But as with
everything the devil is in the details of device firmware version, and
exactly display of what ADS-B data is supported (e.g. TIS, FIS etc.)
Now whether anybody would bother is another question. If I was
throwing down money for a new aircraft or glass panel upgrade now (and
it would primarily be Garmin glass) it would have a Mode-S
transponder, the GDL69A for XM Weather and maybe an Avidyne TAS600
traffic system. I'd also use the TIS traffic support in the SF Bay
Area since it effectively comes for free with the higher end Garmin
transponders even if TIS is on the way out. The GDL-90 UAT would be of
no interest. Garmin's most recent mention of ADS-B on their web site
is to talk about 1090ES upgrades for their Mode-S transponders not UAT
technology.

Darryl

On Jan 24, 4:34*pm, "Mike Schumann" mike-nos...@traditions-
nospam.com wrote:
Be wary of 1090ES. *There are no traffic or weather uploads unless you use
UAT for ADS-B.
[snip]


There is no FIS-B (e.g. weather) data over 1090 ES, however TIS-B
traffic is very much transmitted over the 1090ES uplink and this dual-
uplink of TIS-B over UAT and 1090ES seem pretty important to making
any transition to dual physical layer work. However what exactly you
get depends on the device. As an example the Becker BXP 6401 Mode-S
Transponder claims to provide 1090ES TIS-B data output. Not all other
Mode-S transponders will do this. However with 1090ES low end units
being required in Europe I expect to see these ADS-B-In capabilities
in other affordable 1090ES Transponders at some point.

On the FIS-B side, it will be interesting to see what happens. FIS-B
may drive UAT adoption in the GA fleet (otherwise for Mode-S equipped
aircraft--the people with avionics toys and more likely to buy newer
toys?--going 1090ES might be easier). It will be interesting to see
the effects of the popularity of XM weather, concerns about no pre-
flight/on-ground FIS-B weather coverage at many locations, cost of
certified UAT systems, etc.

My point for raising 1090ES as much as I did was not so much that I
think it has anything to offer per-se over UAT as much as it appears
it is the way Europe is going. And we got sidetracked off on the UK
think and my point there was buying a Mode-S transponder with 1090ES
support provides those folks with a good roadmap to ADS-B. I suspect
some of the UK pilots are looking at the USA and discussion of future
ADS-B UAT products and worying about that too much.

I keep repeating that my concerns are primarily about using
transponders to help reduce risk of collusions with airliners or fast
jets that could seriously damage our sport. I'd just hate to think
there are glider pilots in the USA in some very high traffic areas
putting off getting a Mode-C or Mode-S transponder and waiting for UAT
products and infrastructure to appear.

And even though the airliner scenario is my main concern I am
impressed at PCAS as a tool to reduce collision risks betwen
sailplanes and GA aircraft as well. I hope people are aware that as we
work though a dual UAT and 1090ES transition that UAT devices will not
directly detect transponders and also will not receive any information
say about the many Mode-C transponder equipped aircraft when those
aircraft are outside of SSR radar coverage. Today many of us realize
that we get amazingly good PCAS coverage in places far from, or
obscured from, SSR coverage, I suspect a lot due to TCAS
interrogations. I do hope vendors like Zaon offer an evolution of
their current PCAS devices with it's passive transponder detection as
well as UAT ADS-B-In support.

Enough acronyms for today.

Darryl

On Jan 24, 4:29*pm, "Mike Schumann" mike-nos...@traditions-
nospam.com wrote:
The low cost MITRE ADS-B transceiver that was demo'd at the AOPA Expo a
couple of months ago, provides all of the ADS-B In functionality, including
traffic & weather. *The only major stumbling block in getting this design
available commercially are certification issues around the use of consumer
grade GPS components that are required to make the unit affordable for a GA
market.

1090ES will probably not work as envisioned for ADS-B. *While the Europeans
have decided to standardize on this (as has the US for Jet traffic), there
are serious questions on whether the bandwidth is adequate for high traffic
environments like NY, Atlanta, and LA. *I suspect that in the end, UAT will
be the universal solution.

Mike Schumann

If 1090ES does not work then many countries in the world will have
problems. The Europeans have looked at the USA work and are convinced
it will work there. Some of the European counties seem to have dug in
fairly hard against UAT, and UAT (more so that 1090ES) without
security improvements is likely to be a political hot potato in some
places. It will be interesting to see what happens.

I completely missed that the Mitre UAT at the San Jose Expo had ADS-B-
In, that's great. In addition to the GPS requirements, have they also
settled whether they can use cabin ambient as altimeter static input?
I keep seeing these "portable" prototypes and the issue of requiring a
permanent install, including static tie in, testing etc. are still up
in the air AFAIK. There are also lots of other issues, with ADS-B in
general and UAT in specific as well. Is there going to be multiple
levels of UAT devices, what exactly would a low-end device (consumer
GPS input, etc.) enable? As there would be with any major
infrastructure change, I just don't want people to think they go buy
a UAT and plug it in and they get all these magic services and it
slices and dices and washes as well. One of the current wrinkles with
the ITT lead ground station deployment is exactly what level of TIS-B
uplink traffic information will be provided. AOPA is starting to beat
on that.

Darryl