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#22
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Most people here would be happy with $10.600 for their license.
Last number I heard was to expect from 12K to 14K euro for your PPL. -Kees |
#23
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Hey Thanks everyone I appreciate it. Just wasn't sure what
the averages were. I've heard the national average is like 60-65 hrs for ppl now. Thanks On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:22:02 GMT, Jon Kraus wrote: Here is what I came up for the hours you were quoted if you were taking lessons here in Indiana. I don't know why anyone would need 60 hours of ground school. I think that is total fluff on their part. I think I had something like 5 hours total. Also the pre- and post-flight briefings they quoted may be a little high. I counted on 1/2 hour per lesson for both. IMHO it shouldn't take more then 15 minutes on both sides of the flight for the briefings. Ground School (60 hrs) What the hell do you need 60 hours of ground school for? 40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S 40 * 90.00 40 * 35.00 = $5,000 10 Hours Solo 172R/S 10 * 90.00 = $ 900 1 Multimedia instruction kit $ 200 Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs) 24 * 35.00 $ 840 2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride $ 300 Total at my FBO $7,240 This falls into my standard range of $7-10k for getting your private. What does Westwind do if you go over the 50 hours? I know it took me more that 50 hours to get my private but I am brain damaged from too much partying in the 70's :-) Maybe Jay Beckman can pipe up about his experiences in Arizona. Good luck. This advise is worth what you paid for it and YMMV Jon Kraus '79 Mooney 201 4443H @ TYQ Tolwyn wrote: I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix http://www.flywsa.com/ But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices. Private Pilot Course 8 Weeks long Ground School (60 hrs) 40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S 10 Hours Solo 172R/S 1 Multimedia instruction kit Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs) 2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride $10,600.00 I've heard anywhere from $5-8000.00 for the private pilot license. Is that just for the calculated hours, without adding in ground school? The wet rate is $106/hr & flight instructor is $39/hr. (Damn Oil Prices) If I go the commercial route Private Pilot $10,600 Instrument Rating $14,200 Multi-Engine & Single Engine Commercial Pilot Certificates $14,300 Airline Crew Orientation Program $2,800 Flight Instructor Certs (MEI, CFII & CFI) $11,800 332 Total Flight & Simulator Hours 47 Total Multi-Engine Hours $53,700 Total Just thought I'd check before making the investment. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :-) |
#24
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"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote:
Did it take you eight years of full time study to earn a bachelor's degree? After all, four years is only a recommendation that some are able to acheive. Bad analogy. Unless you're doing it in the military or wealthy enough to to devote all your waking hours at it, the biggest percentage of people at FBOs or other schools are not doing flight training "full time". And 40 hours isn't a recommendation, it is the minimum requirement. They regulations don't make any judgments about your aptitude if you exceed that minimum by x-number of hours...that judgment is made during the checkride, whether you have 40 or 140 hours. I was addressing your comment that maybe the person "lacks aptitude" and "should quit", not how much more it was going to cost. If the school or the CFI are milking the customer for more $$ when they know he/she is ready to move forward, he/she needs to speak up or go elsewhere; but if the customer needs or wants more time, and if they're okay with spending more of their spare change, who else's business is it to pass judgment on how long they took or how much they spent? |
#25
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Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
[snip] Getting back to the average number of hours flown by students in your area: I have to wonder if the reason the numbers are so high is because the FBO or flight training program is greedy. There's no excuse I can see for why it takes people twice as long to achieve what should be done in 40 hours or thereabouts. 1) yes, the schools are greedy 2) the way flight training is set up (at 90% of the schools), there is NO motivation for a CFI (or the school) to get the student finished in the minimum period of time 3) Far too many CFIs are marginally competent at teaching, hence the student is not on a success plan. Just using one of the well-known syllabi does not mean a success plan. The CFIs do not understand how to diagnose the student's learning style, to adjust to that style, how to diagnose why a student isn't learning, etc. 4) Most private students do not know about these news groups, have little or no knowledge of what constitutes a good CFI 5) Most private students are subject to the "authority" or "professional" syndrome -- they understand and know they are ignorant in the topic, know they can be injured or killed, and rely on the expertise of the CFI to train them. And are reluctant to contradict the CFI. Hence they don't realize (until it's really expensive) that the CFI is a label and not a teacher. But we've hashed, rehashed and belittled these points for years in this news group. You finished in a minimum time - wonderful. Mazel tov. Spectacular. The statistics I'd really like to see concerns advanced ratings and such. Once the PPL is finished, the pilot has a much better understanding of the flight training process and the "economics" as well as the pitfalls of choosing and dealing with instructors. So what's the success rate and number of hours to complete an instrument rating, commercial, ATP? I consider your flight frequency ideal for a student. I just don't understand your results. People have been earning private pilot's licenses in less than 50 hours literally for generations. Consider the incompetence of CFIs. Far too many are not instructors, they can merely pass a test. I just finished a discussion concerning a "certification" test program in the computer industry. The initials of the certification merely means the person can memorize trivia (nay, minutia!) from a book. It does not indicate any problem solving skills or dealing with situations not covered in the book. I don't need to memorize trivia -- that's why reference manuals are written. What I need is problem analysis and solving skills. These skills are NOT taught to potential CFIs! If it takes a lot longer, perhaps the student lacks aptitude and should quit. Or maybe they ought to find a program that gets the job done without screwing people. Go back to my original comments. Most PPL students do not realize they are being screwed until far past a reasonable point. And this gets back to the elephant in the room argument. At some point the monetary and effort exceeds the student's "level of pain" and they quit. Personally, I blame the FAA-approved process for creating CFIs. It stinks. It's not effective. It is easily a large part of the problem, if not the the underlying basis of the problem. I don't need fancy new equipment to learn the basics. When I started music lessons, I did not rush out and buy a Buffet clarinet or a Yamaha Super Action soprano saxaphone. It would have been a waste of money. To learn fingering, breath support, technique, notation, etc. the 'student model' is more cost-effective. Besides, I don't think there's a student-model of a soprano sax. But now I have a collection of higher-quality instruments because I have the chops to use them. Same for an aircraft. I have a cherokee. Do I want a Lancair or Cirrus? Sure, but it would be wasted on me right now. I don't have an instrument rating and these aircraft are best suited to a kind of mission that isn't in my bag of tricks. Perhaps in the future. |
#26
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Blanche wrote:
I don't need fancy new equipment to learn the basics. When I started music lessons, I did not rush out and buy a Buffet clarinet or a Yamaha Super Action soprano saxaphone. It would have been a waste of money. To learn fingering, breath support, technique, notation, etc. the 'student model' is more cost-effective. Besides, I don't think there's a student-model of a soprano sax. But now I have a collection of higher-quality instruments because I have the chops to use them. Same for an aircraft. I have a cherokee. Do I want a Lancair or Cirrus? Sure, but it would be wasted on me right now. I don't have an instrument rating and these aircraft are best suited to a kind of mission that isn't in my bag of tricks. Perhaps in the future. That's another good point. The Cessna Pilot Course uses a C172SP in their videos. Our school had other aircraft that were far less expensive to rent and just as capable of getting an applicant through the course, but because the videos used C172SPs, some people chose that airplane so they wouldn't have to interpolate the data used in the examples. And of course, employees were encouraged to encourage use of the SPs. The added expense for an SP over a C152 is about $40-45/hr; over an older model C172, $15-20/hr. Multiply that by 50 or 60 hours flight time, and that's enough, or almost enough, to buy yourself a nice Garmin handheld! Not that all the bells and whistles in the C172SP aren't really nice to have at your fingertips, but how many of those bells and whistles do you *NEED* to learn how to fly? and how many hours and dollars are you spending learning to use those bells and whistles during the training? Sure is a nicer ride for the CFI, though! If a person really likes the C172SP, transitioning can always be done after the license when you are spending the money on instruction for that airplane, not on learning how to fly. (Not criticizing those who choose to do the training in the SP -- if it's affordable, why not? Just saying that that's *ONE* of the reasons why quotes from schools with these newer airplanes are so much more than, for example, someone learning in a C152.) |
#27
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I completely agree.
My FAA 8710-1a has a TT of 87.9 hours on it. That breaks down to 61.7 hours of dual and 26.2 hrs of solo. This took WAAAAYYYY longer than I had anticipated. My mom, who was also instructed by my Dad, got her PP in about 60 hrs and 31 days. That expectation I think hindered me, as well as not being prepared for my flight lessons. I had really thought in the beginning that I could knock it out in 40 and had a budget for about 60. Note, that is REAL time, not TACH time for all but a few flights. My budget survived on Tach time, thank god! Chris....taking my checkride in about 48 hours (Sat 8/27) Ray wrote: Good God! That price is aimed at the most ham-fisted inept students. I got my private license in 44 hours. I don't think it's a good idea to be giving people the impression that the private can be easily done in 40 hours. A lot of people do finish in 40 hours, but most people don't. An unrealistic expectation of finishing in 40 hours can lead to frustration. I took about 80 hours to finish and I wouldn't consider myself inept or ham-fisted (whatever that's supposed to mean). - Ray |
#28
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"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" wrote in message om... 80 hours is a hell of a long time. If I had to guess, I'd say you dragged it out over too long a period, calendar wise. I flew every other day until I was finished. I figure that gave me time enough to digest what I was shown but not so long that I would forget things. If you drag things out excessively, you waste a tremendous amount of time recovering old material. I wonder what the average time is hours wise and calendar wise. Correlation to shorter calendar time and hours? Started lessons on June 16th, passed review on September 9th - 84 days, 46.5 hours. Took ground school concurrently, passed written on August 8th. Longest gap - six days. -- Matt --------------------- Matthew W. Barrow Site-Fill Homes, LLC. Montrose, CO |
#29
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What are your training goals? I recently finished my private here in PHX
and researched all of the schools locally. If you let me know what you want to do I'd be happy to share what I've learned. --ken Tolwyn wrote: Hey Thanks everyone I appreciate it. Just wasn't sure what the averages were. I've heard the national average is like 60-65 hrs for ppl now. Thanks On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:22:02 GMT, Jon Kraus wrote: Here is what I came up for the hours you were quoted if you were taking lessons here in Indiana. I don't know why anyone would need 60 hours of ground school. I think that is total fluff on their part. I think I had something like 5 hours total. Also the pre- and post-flight briefings they quoted may be a little high. I counted on 1/2 hour per lesson for both. IMHO it shouldn't take more then 15 minutes on both sides of the flight for the briefings. Ground School (60 hrs) What the hell do you need 60 hours of ground school for? 40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S 40 * 90.00 40 * 35.00 = $5,000 10 Hours Solo 172R/S 10 * 90.00 = $ 900 1 Multimedia instruction kit $ 200 Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs) 24 * 35.00 $ 840 2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride $ 300 Total at my FBO $7,240 This falls into my standard range of $7-10k for getting your private. What does Westwind do if you go over the 50 hours? I know it took me more that 50 hours to get my private but I am brain damaged from too much partying in the 70's :-) Maybe Jay Beckman can pipe up about his experiences in Arizona. Good luck. This advise is worth what you paid for it and YMMV Jon Kraus '79 Mooney 201 4443H @ TYQ Tolwyn wrote: I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix http://www.flywsa.com/ But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices. Private Pilot Course 8 Weeks long Ground School (60 hrs) 40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S 10 Hours Solo 172R/S 1 Multimedia instruction kit Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs) 2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride $10,600.00 I've heard anywhere from $5-8000.00 for the private pilot license. Is that just for the calculated hours, without adding in ground school? The wet rate is $106/hr & flight instructor is $39/hr. (Damn Oil Prices) If I go the commercial route Private Pilot $10,600 Instrument Rating $14,200 Multi-Engine & Single Engine Commercial Pilot Certificates $14,300 Airline Crew Orientation Program $2,800 Flight Instructor Certs (MEI, CFII & CFI) $11,800 332 Total Flight & Simulator Hours 47 Total Multi-Engine Hours $53,700 Total Just thought I'd check before making the investment. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :-) |
#30
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Really just looking for my ppl right now. But the instrument rating
and so on I'd want to add on at some point. Westwind seems to be the biggest I've found here so far. What route did you take? On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:28:52 -0700, Ken Hughes wrote: What are your training goals? I recently finished my private here in PHX and researched all of the schools locally. If you let me know what you want to do I'd be happy to share what I've learned. --ken Tolwyn wrote: Hey Thanks everyone I appreciate it. Just wasn't sure what the averages were. I've heard the national average is like 60-65 hrs for ppl now. Thanks On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:22:02 GMT, Jon Kraus wrote: Here is what I came up for the hours you were quoted if you were taking lessons here in Indiana. I don't know why anyone would need 60 hours of ground school. I think that is total fluff on their part. I think I had something like 5 hours total. Also the pre- and post-flight briefings they quoted may be a little high. I counted on 1/2 hour per lesson for both. IMHO it shouldn't take more then 15 minutes on both sides of the flight for the briefings. Ground School (60 hrs) What the hell do you need 60 hours of ground school for? 40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S 40 * 90.00 40 * 35.00 = $5,000 10 Hours Solo 172R/S 10 * 90.00 = $ 900 1 Multimedia instruction kit $ 200 Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs) 24 * 35.00 $ 840 2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride $ 300 Total at my FBO $7,240 This falls into my standard range of $7-10k for getting your private. What does Westwind do if you go over the 50 hours? I know it took me more that 50 hours to get my private but I am brain damaged from too much partying in the 70's :-) Maybe Jay Beckman can pipe up about his experiences in Arizona. Good luck. This advise is worth what you paid for it and YMMV Jon Kraus '79 Mooney 201 4443H @ TYQ Tolwyn wrote: I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix http://www.flywsa.com/ But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices. Private Pilot Course 8 Weeks long Ground School (60 hrs) 40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S 10 Hours Solo 172R/S 1 Multimedia instruction kit Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs) 2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride $10,600.00 I've heard anywhere from $5-8000.00 for the private pilot license. Is that just for the calculated hours, without adding in ground school? The wet rate is $106/hr & flight instructor is $39/hr. (Damn Oil Prices) If I go the commercial route Private Pilot $10,600 Instrument Rating $14,200 Multi-Engine & Single Engine Commercial Pilot Certificates $14,300 Airline Crew Orientation Program $2,800 Flight Instructor Certs (MEI, CFII & CFI) $11,800 332 Total Flight & Simulator Hours 47 Total Multi-Engine Hours $53,700 Total Just thought I'd check before making the investment. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :-) |
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