Question about training costs

Here's a strategy for doing the PPL efficiently and reasonably cheaply:

Buy the books and study at home. Use Kershner or Machado, which are
reasonably entertaining and very thorough. You'll need FAR/AIM and the Gleim
book is useful for last-minute test prep. Think about getting the written
out of the way early.
Ask around and find an experienced freelance instructor with a good local
repuation -- someone who's dedicated to the trade and will stick with you
through the whole process.
Train in an older 172. Density altitude at Phoenix means that a 152 has
marginal climb peformance and it will waste a lot of your time just getting
up to pattern altitude.
Train at an uncontrolled field, so you don't waste a lot of time taxiing and
waiting, with the engine turning, on the ground. Deer Valley is not
uncontrolled.
If you have a background in sailing or flying model airplanes, things will
go faster -- you already know how a wing works.

Seth
Comanche N8100R





"Tolwyn" wrote in message
...
Really just looking for my ppl right now. But the instrument rating
and so on I'd want to add on at some point. Westwind seems to be
the biggest I've found here so far. What route did you take?

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 11:28:52 -0700, Ken Hughes
wrote:

What are your training goals? I recently finished my private here in PHX
and researched all of the schools locally. If you let me know what you
want to do I'd be happy to share what I've learned.

--ken


Tolwyn wrote:
Hey Thanks everyone I appreciate it. Just wasn't sure what
the averages were. I've heard the national average is like 60-65 hrs
for ppl now.

Thanks

On Thu, 25 Aug 2005 13:22:02 GMT, Jon Kraus
wrote:


Here is what I came up for the hours you were quoted if you were taking
lessons here in Indiana. I don't know why anyone would need 60 hours of
ground school. I think that is total fluff on their part. I think I had
something like 5 hours total. Also the pre- and post-flight briefings
they quoted may be a little high. I counted on 1/2 hour per lesson for
both. IMHO it shouldn't take more then 15 minutes on both sides of the
flight for the briefings.


Ground School (60 hrs) What the hell do you need 60 hours of ground

school for?


40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S 40 * 90.00

40 * 35.00 = $5,000

10 Hours Solo 172R/S 10 * 90.00 = $ 900
1 Multimedia instruction kit $ 200
Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs) 24 * 35.00 $ 840
2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride $ 300

Total at my FBO $7,240

This falls into my standard range of $7-10k for getting your private.
What does Westwind do if you go over the 50 hours? I know it took me
more that 50 hours to get my private but I am brain damaged from too
much partying in the 70's :-)

Maybe Jay Beckman can pipe up about his experiences in Arizona.

Good luck. This advise is worth what you paid for it and YMMV

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ TYQ
Tolwyn wrote:


I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
http://www.flywsa.com/

But I wanted to know what everyone thinks of these prices.
Private Pilot Course
8 Weeks long
Ground School (60 hrs)
40 Hours Dual Instruction in Cessna 172R/S
10 Hours Solo 172R/S
1 Multimedia instruction kit
Preflight/Postflight Briefing (24 hrs)
2 Hours 172R/S FAA Private Checkride

$10,600.00

I've heard anywhere from $5-8000.00 for the private pilot license.
Is that just for the calculated hours, without adding in ground
school? The wet rate is $106/hr & flight instructor is $39/hr. (Damn
Oil Prices)

If I go the commercial route
Private Pilot $10,600
Instrument Rating $14,200
Multi-Engine & Single Engine Commercial Pilot Certificates $14,300
Airline Crew Orientation Program $2,800
Flight Instructor Certs (MEI, CFII & CFI) $11,800

332 Total Flight & Simulator Hours
47 Total Multi-Engine Hours

$53,700 Total

Just thought I'd check before making the investment.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. :-)

Look again in changed about 9 years about to 20 dual 10 solo. and 40
total.


Brian
CFIIG/ASEL

Matt Barrow wrote:
I wonder what the average time is hours wise and calendar wise. Correlation
to shorter calendar time and hours?

Started lessons on June 16th, passed review on September 9th - 84 days, 46.5
hours. Took ground school concurrently, passed written on August 8th.
Longest gap - six days.


I started in late October and finished in mid February... about three and a half
months. If anything, the winter weather slowed me down.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Seth Masia wrote:
Here's a strategy for doing the PPL efficiently and reasonably cheaply:

Buy the books and study at home. Use Kershner or Machado, which are
reasonably entertaining and very thorough. You'll need FAR/AIM and the Gleim
book is useful for last-minute test prep. Think about getting the written
out of the way early.
Ask around and find an experienced freelance instructor with a good local
repuation -- someone who's dedicated to the trade and will stick with you
through the whole process.
Train in an older 172. Density altitude at Phoenix means that a 152 has
marginal climb peformance and it will waste a lot of your time just getting
up to pattern altitude.
Train at an uncontrolled field, so you don't waste a lot of time taxiing and
waiting, with the engine turning, on the ground. Deer Valley is not
uncontrolled.


Excellent strategy. I wouldn't change a thing.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

VE

Wow. I took 90 hours and enjoyed every min. I guess everyone is in a rush
to go someplace. When you decided to fly at 51 the journey is as sweet as
the destination. (you can teach old dogs new tricks)

I choosed to do extra training in our NY/Philly class B area and learned to
fly along the coast and over the Deleware bay etc. Didn't mind the extra
cost. I would have spent the same money on the flight time and instruction
after my PP-SEL.

But then this is a hobby for me. I have a day job. We are all very lucky to
experience this.


"Tolwyn" wrote in message
...
I'm looking into Westwind Aviation in Phoenix
http://www.flywsa.com/

"Seth Masia" wrote:
Train in an older 172. Density altitude at Phoenix means that a 152 has
marginal climb peformance and it will waste a lot of your time just getting
up to pattern altitude.

I did the majority of mine in a C152 from late April through the end of
July in Phoenix with no problems, including a x-c to Prescott from
Chandler. Of course, you need to fly early in the morning, before it
reaches 110°. If you and/or your CFI weigh a lot, the 172 is a better
choice. I don't see that ANY time was ''wasted'' getting to pattern
altitude ... we were always there in plenty of time, even on the hot
days.

Train at an uncontrolled field, so you don't waste a lot of time taxiing and
waiting, with the engine turning, on the ground.

I flew at Falcon and Chandler, both controlled and fairly busy and
didn't spend any more time in taxi and run-up than at any uncontrolled
field. Busy as those airports both are, we rarely had to wait for
takeoff clearance at either airport. We did, however, spend 20 minutes
waiting for takeoff clearance at Deer Valley one morning and never went
back there; they're always really busy due to the schools, not unusual
for several planes to be lined up for takeoff on more than one taxiway
at the same time.

JMO, but if you're worried about the time spent taxiing at a controlled
vs. uncontrolled airport, you probably can't afford the training. You
need to know how to get in and out of uncontrolled *AND* controlled
airports ... don't limit your training to just one or the other. The
regs state that part of your solo requirement is "three takeoffs and
three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in
the traffic pattern) **at an airport with an operating control tower**."

As you can see by all these responses, everyone has their own ideas
about the best way to train. Do your own research, talk to people whose
opinions you respect, and then make up your own mind about how, where
and with whom you want to train. Good luck and enjoy!

Good on you. Flying early mornings is always a good idea, because that's
when the air is smooth.

No matter where you train, you'll do practice into controlled fields.
There's less pressure at uncontrolled fields, and you'll spend more time
with your head out of the cockpit watching for traffic and being more
flexible with radio work.

What's not fun is sitting in a hot cockpit on a 110 degree day waiting 20
minutes for a takeoff clearance, and then being told to rush the landing
because there's jet traffic behind you -- on your early solos. Which is not
out of the question at a busy controlled field.

Seth

wrote in message
...
"Seth Masia" wrote:
Train in an older 172. Density altitude at Phoenix means that a 152 has
marginal climb peformance and it will waste a lot of your time just
getting
up to pattern altitude.

I did the majority of mine in a C152 from late April through the end of
July in Phoenix with no problems, including a x-c to Prescott from
Chandler. Of course, you need to fly early in the morning, before it
reaches 110°. If you and/or your CFI weigh a lot, the 172 is a better
choice. I don't see that ANY time was ''wasted'' getting to pattern
altitude ... we were always there in plenty of time, even on the hot
days.

Train at an uncontrolled field, so you don't waste a lot of time taxiing
and
waiting, with the engine turning, on the ground.

I flew at Falcon and Chandler, both controlled and fairly busy and
didn't spend any more time in taxi and run-up than at any uncontrolled
field. Busy as those airports both are, we rarely had to wait for
takeoff clearance at either airport. We did, however, spend 20 minutes
waiting for takeoff clearance at Deer Valley one morning and never went
back there; they're always really busy due to the schools, not unusual
for several planes to be lined up for takeoff on more than one taxiway
at the same time.

JMO, but if you're worried about the time spent taxiing at a controlled
vs. uncontrolled airport, you probably can't afford the training. You
need to know how to get in and out of uncontrolled *AND* controlled
airports ... don't limit your training to just one or the other. The
regs state that part of your solo requirement is "three takeoffs and
three landings to a full stop (with each landing involving a flight in
the traffic pattern) **at an airport with an operating control tower**."

As you can see by all these responses, everyone has their own ideas
about the best way to train. Do your own research, talk to people whose
opinions you respect, and then make up your own mind about how, where
and with whom you want to train. Good luck and enjoy!

Seth Masia wrote:

Buy the books and study at home. Use Kershner or Machado, which are
reasonably entertaining and very thorough. You'll need FAR/AIM and the Gleim
book is useful for last-minute test prep. Think about getting the written
out of the way early.

Some people can visualize things from reading and study well enough to do this;
others can't. If you find that you're having trouble understanding the material,
it may be best to wait to take the written exam. When you actually do something
in the plane that you've read about, it makes it clearer. This was particularly
true for me with instruments.

Back when I took the test, the FAA asked that you review the questions that you
missed. This was only possible if you had the Gleim book for the version of the
exam you took. Dunno if that's still true.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

TF wrote:
Wow. I took 90 hours and enjoyed every min.

In my case, it was 72 hours, and I enjoyed most of it. Having a lovely blond
instructor of the opposite sex played a part. :-) I had some trouble getting my
medical certificate, though, and about 15 hours of that was marking time waiting
on that.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"Seth Masia" wrote:
What's not fun is sitting in a hot cockpit on a 110 degree day waiting 20
minutes for a takeoff clearance, and then being told to rush the landing
because there's jet traffic behind you -- on your early solos. Which is not
out of the question at a busy controlled field.

Point I was making was that not *all* controlled fields around Phoenix
are as busy as Deer Valley. A friend that attended one of the schools
there said waiting 20 minutes for takeoff clearance at Deer Valley is
not at all uncommon. Waiting even 5 minutes for takeoff clearance at
Chandler or Falcon IS uncommon -- a minute or two is the norm if you
aren't cleared on the first request. But it's not unusual to have to
wait a minute or two for landing traffic at uncontrolled fields in the
Phoenix area either. Just because it's an uncontrolled field doesn't
mean there won't/can't be faster aircraft behind you ... a King Air in
the pattern at Casa Grande behind a 172, for example.