Bible-beater pilots

I guess I should cancel my plans to deliver Thanksgiving dinner to the
needy
tomorrow. Since it's on behalf of my church.

I guess you better. After all, according to the atheists here, if your
motivation is religious, you must not be moral.

Jeez, I turn my attention away from this thread for a day or two, and look
what happens! Talk about bitter dissension!

I am thankful that there are those who deliver dinner to the needy --
whatever their motivation. If your religion commands you to help the
hungry, house the homeless, and generally help humanity, I certainly will
not argue with you. In fact, I thank you.

However, I believe some posters have been trying to state the obvious, which
is: Religion is a powerful force for both good and evil. Gullible people
can be misled easily with the whole "fear of eternal damnation" threat.

And it works the other way, too! Just look how many fools have been
recruited by the fundamentalist, radical "Islamo-Fascists" in the Middle
East! These dupes are lured into doing the ultimate evil, simply by having
"eternity in paradise" promised to them. How many more children and
innocents must be blown to smithereens so that this sick, parasitic version
of Islam can flourish?

Does anyone honestly think there would be suicide attacks WITHOUT religion
assuring them of "eternal life"? THAT is the evil side of religion, ladies
and gentlemen -- and it must be addressed in any serious discussion of
religion.

Anyhow, I only meant to comment on the rudeness of the religious zealots
Mary and I ran into, and on the interesting way in which they were
apparently able to self-justify their bizarre, unseemly behavior. I did not
mean for this thread to pick on any particular religion, as these guys could
just have easily have been Muslims, Hare Krishnas, or Believers in the
Force.

It's sad that this thread -- probably the longest I've ever seen -- ended up
the way it did. I guess pilots are no different than the rest of the world
in this regard...

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 18:32:07 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
wrote:

Jeez, I turn my attention away from this thread for a day or two, and look
what happens! Talk about bitter dissension!

Jay, it always comes to this when people start calling others' belief
systems delusional and amoral.

However, I believe some posters have been trying to state the obvious, which
is: Religion is a powerful force for both good and evil. Gullible people
can be misled easily with the whole "fear of eternal damnation" threat.

They can be misled more easily through the basic peer pressure of
"conform, or else we won't like you very much". Any middle school is a
breeding ground for that. So was Russian Communism, for that matter.

And it works the other way, too! Just look how many fools have been
recruited by the fundamentalist, radical "Islamo-Fascists" in the Middle
East! These dupes are lured into doing the ultimate evil, simply by having
"eternity in paradise" promised to them. How many more children and
innocents must be blown to smithereens so that this sick, parasitic version
of Islam can flourish?

Well, a couple of points of order: Islamofascism isn't flourishing;
all the people under its boot are doing rather poorly, including
(thanks in no small part to U.S. intervention) the leaders of the
movement.

I mean, think about it: Their hatred is so pure, that if they had the
means, they'd have attacked a second time. So far the best they can do
since 9/11/01 seems to be to sneak explosives in, disguised as
innocent civilian traffic, and detonate it.

Second, I don't think you'd have the suicide bombers without the
desparate poverty of the common people in those areas, especially
Palestine. But the same thugs who foment Islamofascism are largely
responsible for keeping those people impoverished anyway, precisely
because they take hopeless people and brainwash them with a very false
interpretation of an otherwise peaceful religious belief system.

Does anyone honestly think there would be suicide attacks WITHOUT religion
assuring them of "eternal life"?

Yes. A charismatic person reasoning under a humanistic belief system
could tell hopeless people that their sacrifices are for the "good of
Mankind", (or the "Good of the Fatherland", or "the Motherland") and
that they must spend their lives to ensure it.

Train 'em from age three or so, (heck, you could probably start at age
seven and still pull it off) and you'll have your warriors.

THAT is the evil side of religion, ladies
and gentlemen -- and it must be addressed in any serious discussion of
religion.

How many suicide attackers have come out of Catholicism, Shinto,
Buddhaism, any Protestant denomination, Sikh, Baha'i, Mormonism, any
pagan system, or Scientology?

I tell you three times: it's not the source of evil acts, even if it
is the excuse.

Anyhow, I only meant to comment on the rudeness of the religious zealots

Yeah, I know. Again, the best approach to those types is to a) ignore
them, or b) stand your ground and watch them make a public scene. The
crowd will sympathize with *you*.

It's sad that this thread -- probably the longest I've ever seen -- ended up
the way it did. I guess pilots are no different than the rest of the world
in this regard...

It's said of the military that it's composed of a proportional
sampling of all of America. I don't see why the private pilots in the
United States or anyplace else would have outlooks any different than
the rest of the population.

Rob

("Rob Perkins" wrote)
snip
How many suicide attackers have come out of Catholicism, Shinto,
Buddhaism, any Protestant denomination, Sikh, Baha'i, Mormonism, any
pagan system, or Scientology?


Islamic nut-job. After I blow myself up, I will be accepted into (wherever)
and have 70 virgins, bla, bla, bla.

Catholic (IRA?) nut-job - Got a date with a virgin tonight. But for now,
let's see - light fuse. Run like hell!!


Yes, suicide bombers are especially unsettling. But in the end - Bombs is
Bombs, especially to the young couple sitting at a cafe when said bombs go
off.

Scary bomb story. Friend went to London on an IcelandAir (winter) special.
The group decide to meet, later, on a street corner (near the subway and the
hotel and the pub) was why they picked that corner. Corner was well off the
beaten path. Two days later a bomb blows up on that corner. I think it was
the bomb that blew up on the bus - prematurely.

They *all* belong to the Church of the Insane Nut-Jobs when bombs are
involved.

--
Montblack
http://lumma.de/mt/archives/bart.gif

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:Hqrxb.128107$Dw6.561599@attbi_s02...
However, I believe some posters have been trying to state the obvious,
which
is: Religion is a powerful force for both good and evil. Gullible people
can be misled easily with the whole "fear of eternal damnation" threat.

Yes, a belief system is a very powerful motivator. It is worse than
unfortunate that there are those who exploit this for their own ends and to
the detriment of humanity. Perhaps in the future there will need to be
stricter limits on religious freedoms, who knows.

I think this thread has played itself out. Have a happy Thanksgiving
everyone!

In article , "Peter Gottlieb"
writes:

If there was no legal requirement to carry
insurance and no way for the public to know whether or not their
practicioner carried it the public would suddenly be at a major
disadvantage. How would you propose to set this up?


Litigation being what it is, you have to have insuarnce to practice, or you
risk losong everything you own. Further, most banks and dental insurance
companies will not do business with you if you are not insured.

Aside from which, I could forge a license just as easily as as I could forge a
certificate of insurance. No one checks validity except the dental insurance
companies you contract with. They verify it with the carrier.

--
Wm. Donald (Don) Tabor Jr., DDS
PP-ASEL
Chesapeake, VA - CPK, PVG

Rob Perkins wrote:

Second, I don't think you'd have the suicide bombers without the

desparate poverty of the common people in those areas, especially
Palestine. But the same thugs who foment Islamofascism are largely
responsible for keeping those people impoverished anyway, precisely
because they take hopeless people and brainwash them with a very false
interpretation of an otherwise peaceful religious belief system.



Does anyone honestly think there would be suicide attacks WITHOUT religion
assuring them of "eternal life"?



Yes. A charismatic person reasoning under a humanistic belief system
could tell hopeless people that their sacrifices are for the "good of
Mankind", (or the "Good of the Fatherland", or "the Motherland") and
that they must spend their lives to ensure it.

Reading this suggests that you are making the assumption that the
suicide bombers
come from the down-trodden, hopeless members of Islamic society. I've
seen several
reports recently, though, that challenge this idea. I don't have any
citations handy, but
from what I remember it's the more affluent segment of the society
that's providing the
zealots.

This actually makes sense, looking back at this countries own
turbulent history. There
were the occasional riots (like Watts) where most of the participants
were from the
"oppressed" segments of our society, but the real "outlaw" groups (SDS,
Weather
Underground, etc) were made up mostly of middle-class kids who felt the
country
was wrong, and that violence was the only answer.

When you think about it, the down-trodden really don't have a lot of
opportunity to
become revolutionaries. They're too busy just trying to stay alive. They
might go into
crime, but they don't have the time, energy, or education to become
revolutionaries.
The middle class kids, though, have lots of free time to "think grand
thoughts" since
"mommy and daddy" are footing the bill. They also have the education to
know that
a successful revolution is possible, and to figure out how to carry if off.

Rich Lemert

Wdtabor wrote:

Litigation being what it is, you have to have insuarnce to practice, or you
risk losong everything you own.

Actually, you don't have to have insurance to practice. Like you say,
you do risk losing
everything, but then again there are many people willing to take that
risk - some because
they "know" it will never happen to them, some because they're trying to
make as much
money as fast as they can, and some because they can't get insurance.

Further, most banks and dental insurance
companies will not do business with you if you are not insured.

But then again, if your unscrupulous enough to run an uninsured
dentistry practice,
what makes you think you'll have any trouble finding equally
unscrupulous banks and
insurance companies.

Aside from which, I could forge a license just as easily as as I could forge a
certificate of insurance. No one checks validity except the dental insurance
companies you contract with. They verify it with the carrier.

I'm sorry, but this looks like your trying to make a circular
argument. It sounds like
your saying that the only people that check for your license are the
insurance companies,
and they only check with themselves.

Rich Lemert

On Fri, 28 Nov 2003 01:16:21 GMT, L Smith
wrote:

Reading this suggests that you are making the assumption that the
suicide bombers
come from the down-trodden, hopeless members of Islamic society.

Your ideas are thought-provoking; I was thinking specifically of the
suiciders who come out of Palestine. As with many things, I could be
wrong, but I don't think there's much of a middle class left there.

As a counter idea, though, I'll offer that "hopeless people" doesn't
necessarily mean "poor people", and that one can be downtrodden in
ideas without suffering from material want.

Rob

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003, Rob Perkins wrote:

It's said of the military that it's composed of a proportional
sampling of all of America. I don't see why the private pilots in the
United States or anyplace else would have outlooks any different than
the rest of the population.

It's also worth remembering that UseNet is also a very international
forum, and that most of the rest of the western world is significantly
less religious that the USA.

For example, Canada's (outgoing) Prime Minister has been leading for over
eight years; it wasn't until about a year ago I finally learned he's
Catholic. It really is less of an issue here, and in Europe.

shrug In any case, it was an interesting thread.

Brian.

On Thu, 27 Nov 2003 21:45:58 +0000, Peter Gottlieb wrote:

I think this thread has played itself out. Have a happy Thanksgiving
everyone!

See this is where I have a problem. People who claim to not be religious
celebrate holidays such as Christmas, Easter, and yes Thanksgiving.

Do some research into the origins of Thanksgiving, and also that of our
Country and you'll see a religious connection.

As for me, I do not observe those holidays since they have been corrupted
by the Catholics trying to sway the belief system of pagans. For those
that care to check it out most of our current religions holidays have been
based on dates the pagans observed their festivals. There is a lot of
crap organized religion has shoved down our throats and until recently
most held it as true. Now they say we know what it means, but we don't
celebrate it like that so it's ok. It's NOT OK!

For my biggest gripe with organized religion look at Halloween, why would a
Church allow it's members to observe a pagan ritual, and actively
encourage it's members to observe it in their sanctuary when it's
expressly forbidden to partake of evil? Something is mighty screwed up
there and should be fixed, yet the attitude of we've always done it this
way and it's not hurt anybody is what keeps it going and is also why it's
wrong.