Potential Club Class (US Sports Class) World Team Selection Policy Changes

On Sep 27, 12:37*pm, "HL Falbaum" wrote:
"Tony" wrote in message

...
On Sep 27, 10:42 am, "Tim Mara" wrote:

and it too has been a bust for NASCAR....
ever since NASCAR started re-inventing late model race cars, started
allowing FWD cars to suddenly become RWD and allowing big V8's in Toyota's
that never existed in the real world NASCAR with all it's mathematical
handicapping has been in a tailspin....
tim

"There is nothing stock about a stock car"

Proves the old racing adage--
"You can't make a racehorse out of a pig, but with enough time, effort, and
money, you can make a very fast pig".

Hartley Falbaum

Ha, although NASCAR is as close to a one design competition as ever
with the new body style. everyone running the same body eliminates
issues with different manufacturers varying aerodynamics. still
plenty of variation between the engine shops though. so the
manufacturer really doesn't matter, they're just another team sponsor
who gets their sticker on the hood, IMO.

On Sep 27, 10:23*am, Tony wrote:
On Sep 27, 10:42*am, "Tim Mara" wrote:

and it too has been a bust for NASCAR....
ever since NASCAR started re-inventing late model race cars, started
allowing FWD cars to suddenly become RWD and allowing big V8's in Toyota's
that never existed in the real world NASCAR with all it's mathematical
handicapping has been in a tailspin....
tim

"There is nothing stock about a stock car"

I heard there is a move to allow unmodified stock cars to compete in
NASCAR events under a handicap system, but concerns with the large
disparity in performance have prompted a move to create a separate
racing class and restrict participation to handicaps within a narrow
range. Permitted cars will be original 70's era Chevy Chevettes, Ford
Pintos and AMC Pacers. A request to allow Gremlins was turned down
because drivers of the other cars were concerned they wouldn't be able
to keep up with the Gremlin despite the handicap.

Negotiations over scheduling and use of the Talladega SuperSpeedway
are ongoing. Members of the new class are insisting that unless they
get the use of the Speedway on the very popular Memorial Day weekend
that they won't get enough competitor participation and will get a
disproportionately small share of TV rights revenues.

;-)

On Sep 27, 11:37*am, Andy wrote:
On Sep 27, 7:53*am, Andrzej Kobus wrote:





On Sep 27, 9:26*am, wrote:

On Sep 25, 9:02*pm, RRK wrote:

1. * * Handicaps don't *ever work over the range of performance
* * * * that we allow in the Sports Class.
2. * * Sport class will never allow for AST's, most common task flown
Internationally.

rk

RE 2
You are not entirely correct in your statement. The MAT can be set
with enough fixed turnpoints to keep the high performance gliders or
the same course until Mintime runes out, while allowing the slower
gliders to drop off and come home when they time out. This does
exactly what is needed with a spread of glider performance. Everybody
flies the same air and everybody gets to come home for beer.
CD's and task advisers need to use this option more.
UH

Yes, Hank that works well and it should be used more, except on a
thermal/ridge day with limited number of turn points in the task. The
18 m gliders in the Sports Class fly the task and after that go on the
ridge for bonus turn points to get their speed up. The club class
pilot is lucky if he can make most of the turn points, but since he is
not able to fly them all he can not go for the bonus points to get his
points up. This situation can be a real problem.

On a ridge day I'd think it would be incumbent on the CD to call TPs
along the ridge so everyone get the option during the main task.

9B

All depends on the CD and weather forecast accuracy. If part of a task
can't be flown on a ridge and weather turns out to be worse than
predicted then you may have a situation where a Club Class glider will
not be able to round all the defined points but 18 m glider will. The
can happen. The point is you can handicap all you want you can create
very complex task setting rules but none of it may work to equalize
glider inequalities if you fly 3-5 days. Here in the east this year
has been terrible. We sometimes go weeks without reasonable weather.

I think a system is needed in the U.S. where everyone finds a decent
place to compete. Club class pilots should have their own class to
compete, and perhaps the best place to start with is Nationals since
this kind of start would have the list impact on Sports Class
participation at the regional level. We also need to be mindful of the
excellent service to the community and US Team that Karl and others
provide in Duos. We can't destroy that. I am sure the Club Class
pilots can organize another contest themselves.

On Sep 27, 2:38*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Sep 27, 11:37*am, Andy wrote:





On Sep 27, 7:53*am, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

On Sep 27, 9:26*am, wrote:

On Sep 25, 9:02*pm, RRK wrote:

1. * * Handicaps don't *ever work over the range of performance
* * * * that we allow in the Sports Class.
2. * * Sport class will never allow for AST's, most common task flown
Internationally.

rk

RE 2
You are not entirely correct in your statement. The MAT can be set
with enough fixed turnpoints to keep the high performance gliders or
the same course until Mintime runes out, while allowing the slower
gliders to drop off and come home when they time out. This does
exactly what is needed with a spread of glider performance. Everybody
flies the same air and everybody gets to come home for beer.
CD's and task advisers need to use this option more.
UH

Yes, Hank that works well and it should be used more, except on a
thermal/ridge day with limited number of turn points in the task. The
18 m gliders in the Sports Class fly the task and after that go on the
ridge for bonus turn points to get their speed up. The club class
pilot is lucky if he can make most of the turn points, but since he is
not able to fly them all he can not go for the bonus points to get his
points up. This situation can be a real problem.

On a ridge day I'd think it would be incumbent on the CD to call TPs
along the ridge so everyone get the option during the main task.

9B

All depends on the CD and weather forecast accuracy. If part of a task
can't be flown on a ridge and weather turns out to be worse than
predicted then you may have a situation where a Club Class glider will
not be able to round all the defined points but 18 m glider will. The
can happen. The point is you can handicap all you want you can create
very complex task setting rules but none of it may work to equalize
glider inequalities if you fly 3-5 days. Here in the east this year
has been terrible. We sometimes go weeks without reasonable weather.

I think a system is needed in the U.S. where everyone finds a decent
place to compete. Club class pilots should have their own class to
compete, and perhaps the best place to start with is Nationals since
this kind of start would have the list impact on Sports Class
participation at the regional level. We also need to be mindful of the
excellent service to the community and US Team that Karl and others
provide in Duos. We can't destroy that. I am sure the Club Class
pilots can organize another contest themselves.

Yet another way to look at this problem is to have handicapped classes
only at regional level. Three classes could be defined. Say Club,
Standard, Performance. The standard could include 15 m gliders (most
of regional comps are without water so differences are minimal more or
less this already happens), the performance class could include 18 m
and up. Duo would also have its place according to Sports Class
handicap and we would only have 3 classes to deal with.

I bet this would never fly.

On Sep 27, 11:38*am, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

All depends on the CD and weather forecast accuracy. If part of a task
can't be flown on a ridge and weather turns out to be worse than
predicted then you may have a situation where a Club Class glider will
not be able to round all the defined points but 18 m glider will. The
can happen. The point is you can handicap all you want you can create
very complex task setting rules but none of it may work to equalize
glider inequalities if you fly 3-5 days. Here in the east this year
has been terrible. We sometimes go weeks without reasonable weather.

Yeah, you can't win if you can't fly. I think it is always incumbent
of the CD to task such that all competitors have a fair opportunity to
compete on as level a playing field as possible. You can't really
write many rules for that - maybe guidelines or shared wisdom. On a
short contest weather and tasking can skew either for or against any
particular type of glider.

I think a system is needed in the U.S. where everyone finds a decent
place to compete. Club class pilots should have their own class to
compete, and perhaps the best place to start with is Nationals since
this kind of start would have the list impact on Sports Class
participation at the regional level. We also need to be mindful of the
excellent service to the community and US Team that Karl and others
provide in Duos. We can't destroy that. I am sure the Club Class
pilots can organize another contest themselves.

Agreed. Trying to divide up a bunch of dissimilar gliders into
groupings that are big enough that you get real competition and
similar enough that you get "fair" competition with all the fagaries
of global class definitions and US ownership patterns - it's just hard.