Potential Club Class (US Sports Class) World Team Selection Policy Changes

On Sep 18, 7:33*pm, "Wayne Paul" wrote:
Hey... I have an idea!! *This same technique should be use to determine the US World Class team. *It is a shame that so many good pilots are excluded from international World Class competition simply because they don't own a PW-5!!!

Let's make a pilot flying an open class glider eligible to qualify for
any team. Let's not exclude him from the 15 m or the 18 m class just
because he can not buy a second or a third glider. Poor guy needs all
the chances he can get to qualify.

On Sep 18, 8:05*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Sep 18, 7:33*pm, "Wayne Paul" wrote:

Hey... I have an idea!! *This same technique should be use to determine the US World Class team. *It is a shame that so many good pilots are excluded from international World Class competition simply because they don't own a PW-5!!!

Let's make a pilot flying an open class glider eligible to qualify for
any team. Let's not exclude him from the 15 m or the 18 m class just
because he can not buy a second or a third glider. Poor guy needs all
the chances he can get to qualify.

Is the assertion then that handicapping does not in fact work?
QT

On Sep 18, 4:53*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)"
wrote:
On Sep 18, 5:14*pm, Ray Jay wrote:





And a fine hello to you, too, Mr. Cochrane:

Irrespective of anyone's history of participation, this decision
smells just like yet another justification to the benefit of those
best equipped and consequently knees squarely in the nuts those who
worked so hard to get Club Class going in this country.

It isn't enough that 18m has its own lightly participated class in
which to go on to Worlds?
Expense isn't already enough a barrier to entry for you?
So now it's legit to encroach upon the opportunities of a lesser
performing class?

Hence, the resultant reactions to which both Mike and Chuck allude.

Regards,

Ray Cornay

There are number of good points being made here, but one I just can't
get is "the glider makes the winner" in a handicapped class. This is
the place where that argument carries the least weight

1. At the 2009 Sports Nationals, only 14 of 35 gliders were club class
eligible. Only 2 of the top 10 finishers were club class eligible.
2. At the 2010 Sports Nationals, only 15 of 42 gliders were club class
eligible. Only 2 of the top 10 finishers were club class eligible.

So many very good pilots are being excluded from the club competition
simply because of the glider they are flying. *Most pilots cannot
afford more than one glider, and once they have saved mightily to get
their prized 27, 29 or whatever are not likely to sell it to get a
club ship. So many very good pilots are being excluded for what
amounts to financial reasons.

Our most experienced and accomplished team pilots generally agree that
whatever disadvantages exist if you compete in a club class ship after
winning in a say 27 or 29 are far outweighed by the smaller pool of
pilots from which the team can be drawn.

Now it may be true that handicaps need more work to keep the playing
field level, but I believe that the new approach moves us from
excluding some of our best pilots based on finances and becomes much
more inclusive.

It is really good that we are getting vigorous engagement on this with
4 months to go before the proposal goes before the SSA board for a
vote. *We all want a fair and inclusive competition environment that
attracts increased participation and develops pilots that are
competitive at the worlds.

John Godfrey (QT)
US Rules Committee- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

So many very good pilots are being excluded from the FAI competitions
simply because of the glider they are flying. Most pilots cannot
afford more than one glider, and once they have saved mightily to get
their prized club class glider are not likely to sell it to get an
FAI ship. So many very good pilots are being excluded for what
amounts to financial reasons.

So if its such a great idea to flood the Club Class with non-
conforming gliders simply to generate a bigger pilot pool, then we
should take similar action in the FAI classes. To increase the low
turnout in Open and Standard class at the Nationals this year of only
12 pilots, I propose the Rules Committee employ handicapping in the
FAI classes to make the older gliders competitive and boost the number
of potential competitors. This would allow the team selection to pull
from a group of pilots that were previously excluded from potential
world team slots simply from financial reasons and if its true what
you said, there shouldn't be any problem for a club class pilot to
move to a current generation racing ship in the WGC.
Bob Faris

On Sep 18, 9:51*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)"
wrote:
On Sep 18, 8:05*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

On Sep 18, 7:33*pm, "Wayne Paul" wrote:

Hey... I have an idea!! *This same technique should be use to determine the US World Class team. *It is a shame that so many good pilots are excluded from international World Class competition simply because they don't own a PW-5!!!

Let's make a pilot flying an open class glider eligible to qualify for
any team. Let's not exclude him from the 15 m or the 18 m class just
because he can not buy a second or a third glider. Poor guy needs all
the chances he can get to qualify.

Is the assertion then that handicapping does not in fact work?
QT

Handicaps work but only in narrow spread. Tim Taylor gave you a good
example above. Another would be the last year's Sports Class Nationals
in Elmira.

This has been discussed here over and over during the past couple of
years. Please review.

Contests are won and lost on weak days. Large span gliders will make
it while club class gliders may end up in a field. No handicap can
help in such a situation.

I am not flying a club class glider anymore because I could not stand
constant tinkering around it.

What are you guys going to tell Sean Franke who sold his Ventus 2 to
buy LS-1F. I guess Sam Giltner saw it coming and sold his glider in
time.

The biggest killer to participation is constant change and inability
to predict what is going to happen next year.

Where does it say that an ASG-29 pilot has a right or should be able
to qualify for Club Class team? Don't you see something is wrong with
this picture.

Please give the Club Class pilots a break and stop tinkering around
it.

On Sep 18, 9:51*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)"
wrote:
On Sep 18, 8:05*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:

On Sep 18, 7:33*pm, "Wayne Paul" wrote:

Hey... I have an idea!! *This same technique should be use to determine the US World Class team. *It is a shame that so many good pilots are excluded from international World Class competition simply because they don't own a PW-5!!!

Let's make a pilot flying an open class glider eligible to qualify for
any team. Let's not exclude him from the 15 m or the 18 m class just
because he can not buy a second or a third glider. Poor guy needs all
the chances he can get to qualify.

Is the assertion then that handicapping does not in fact work?
QT

Handicaps work but only in narrow spread. Tim Taylor gave you a good
example above. Another would be the last year's Sports Class
Nationals
in Elmira.
This has been discussed here over and over during the past couple of
years. Please review.
Contests are won and lost on weak days. Large span gliders will make
it while club class gliders may end up in a field. No handicap can
help in such a situation.
I am not flying a club class glider anymore because I could not stand
constant tinkering with it.
What are you guys going to tell Sean Franke who sold his Ventus 2 to
buy LS-1F. I guess Sam Giltner saw it coming and sold his glider in
time.
The biggest killer to participation is constant change and inability
to predict what is going to happen next year.
Where does it say that an ASG-29 pilot has a right or should be able
to qualify for Club Class team? Don't you see something is wrong with
this picture.
Please give the Club Class pilots a break and stop tinkering with
it.

By the way majority voted to keep things as they were.

Should the US team continue to restrict selection to the club-class
worlds to
gliders on the US club-class list?
Yes 47%
No 44%

First, to address Tim’s post, I personally know 2 of the top 7 pilots
in the 2010 WGC and one was the winner! To say these guys spent a lot
of money on their Libelles (Libellie?) is not correct. They do spend a
significant amount of sweat equity in their ships. All three are
immaculate! There instrument cost probably amount to half the
airframes worth. So be it at the world’s level.
All three have been flying their ships for years, and train every
chance they get. The one in my club is often the first to launch in
the morning and almost always the last to return in the evening. He
makes amazing flights on weak days and tells me that practicing on
weak days is the only path to success in comps. By the way, he is also
one of our instructors and spends 10-15 days of the year teaching the
students.
On those same weak days a Ventus, DG800, Nimbus 3 and the Antares (and
other higher performance, newer, costlier gliders) will make the same
distance in much less time. Usually these pilots in the higher
performance gliders finish with nearly identical times. To spread a
handicap across the Libelle to the Antares is may I say it, unfair! I
think the rules committee in the US is going to kill long term
competition by continuing on this path.
And If I read correctly John Godfrey (QT) US Rules Committee states;

1. At the 2009 Sports Nationals, only 14 of 35 gliders were club
class
2. At the 2010 Sports Nationals, only 15 of 42 gliders were club
class

In both cases these numbers, with a little more incentive to increase
pilot participation, means the Club class would equal half the
contestants in the Sports Class. This Sounds to me like the Rules
committee is more worried about the viability of the Sports Class than
supporting fair competitions.

How many on the rules committee fly Club Class gliders? (A dangerous
question, (I know) to ask and I don't mean to upset anyone here but I
am just curious)

Here in Europe the club class comps are oversubscribed and almost all
of the top comp pilots started in Club class before moving up to other
FAI classes. What is different in the US? The number of 18-25 year
olds flying in Club Class comps her in Germany is astounding. What are
the numbers in the US?

Thanks for reading!
Bob McDowell
PS; to address a continuing “urban myth” that seems prevalent in the
US, I don’t know any clubs in Germany (with the exceptions of the
AKA’s) who receive Government funding. As a matter of fact with EASA
our bureaucratic costs continue to rise.
PPS, This is the ramblings of an American currently in Germany who
will return to the US soon and hope to compete in the Club Class so
not entirely altruistic viewpoint!

At 17:53 18 September 2010, Mike wrote:

There are excellent pilots that win in their classes. Let them remain
there doing their best, and if they want to fly Club Class, let them
buy a Club Class ship.

Isn't this a lot like the situation in NASCAR, where there is the premier
series (Sprint Cup, I think it's called) and a secondary series
(Nationwide series). The tendency lately has been for the top drivers in
the Sprint series to show up to race (and win) in the Nationwide. Some
people think this is good, because they get to see the hero drivers win
more races, while others think it's bad because it takes the incentive
out of what was sort of meant to be a feeder series to develop talent for
Sprint Cup. It also takes away the prize money that the Nationwide
drivers really need.

Anyway, I'm not a NASCAR fan myself (but I have friends who are rapid on
the subject) but I think NASCAR has perverted (opinion, others would just
say changed) the meaning of the secondary series.

Jim Beckman

At 22:53 18 September 2010, John Godfrey QT wrote:

So many very good pilots are being excluded from the club competition
simply because of the glider they are flying. Most pilots cannot
afford more than one glider, and once they have saved mightily to get
their prized 27, 29 or whatever are not likely to sell it to get a
club ship. So many very good pilots are being excluded for what
amounts to financial reasons.

Well, they're excluded from the 1-26 Championship, too, aren't they?
That's sort of the point of the 1-26 class, isn't it? Let me admit that
the only competition I've flown is the occasional 1-26 Championship, but I
guess I'm not clear on what the purpose of glider racing is. It begins to
sound like what we all want to do is pick some pilots who can win at the
world competition. I used to have the impression that glider racing was
about getting together with a bunch of like-minded idiots and having fun
flying our gliders. That certainly seems to happen at the 1-26 meets.
Maybe I'm just uninformed.

Jim Beckman

On Sep 18, 6:51*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)"
wrote:

Is the assertion then that handicapping does not in fact work?
QT

I have no dog in this fight, but *No* handicapping does not work, if
by working you mean that a Standard class glider can compete fairly
with an Open class glider on a weak day over un-landable terrain.

When it was said "there is no substitute for span" handicapping was
included!

Andy (GY)