Auto-Towing - why is this not more popular?

On 10/11/2015 9:16 AM, Muttley wrote:
Sorry here is the link
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=NnhoE7G68YM

So cool! Except for the water (on the ground, I mean, ha ha) that took me back
to my early training days in Cumberland, MD when - for lack of a better idea -
I'd go to the field on similar days, often there to find my instructor (who
lived 3 hours away), insisting I take a tow in similar low-cloudbase,
drizzling, superficially gloomy conditions. Many times we'd find
intermittently usable convective lift, and it wasn't long after I got my
license I figured out I'd been also learning a whole heckuva lot more about
the atmosphere and in-flight judgment, too. (Thanks, Tom!)

Man, it is FUN to soar on "unsoarable" days. It's even more fun to be having &
able to do so when XC!

Bob W.

IMHO every pilot should know 10 different ways to land safely, instead of only one way, to perfection. Accident statistics back up this idea. Many landing accidents happen because a pilot is trying to fly "the same" pattern when something totally different is called for.

And glider pilots should be taught to turn their aircraft. If you've never turned your plane off of the runway, you are not going to turn in an emergency when you need to. Over the years I've seen several gliders taxi straight into other aircraft, when turning into a smooth field next to the runway was a completely viable option.

Boggs

On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:55:28 PM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
IMHO every pilot should know 10 different ways to land safely, instead of only one way, to perfection. Accident statistics back up this idea. Many landing accidents happen because a pilot is trying to fly "the same" pattern when something totally different is called for.

And glider pilots should be taught to turn their aircraft. If you've never turned your plane off of the runway, you are not going to turn in an emergency when you need to. Over the years I've seen several gliders taxi straight into other aircraft, when turning into a smooth field next to the runway was a completely viable option.

Boggs

Interesting, I just had this discussion with one of the old-time CFIGs in our club (flies an ASW-19 but not XC), and he is strongly opposed to experienced pilots maneuvering on the field after landing; says it sets a bad example for the students (who are taught to roll out straight). Needless to say, I strongly disagreed with him, pointing out that the ability to land out of any pattern, and roll out exactly where you want/need to go, is an important skill that needs to be taught, even if the PTS doesn't require it!

Then again, he isn't much impressed by my low approaches and circling patterns to a landing, either...

Kirk
66

On 10/19/2015 8:45 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:55:28 PM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
IMHO every pilot should know 10 different ways to land safely, instead of
only one way, to perfection. Accident statistics back up this idea. Many
landing accidents happen because a pilot is trying to fly "the same"
pattern when something totally different is called for.

And glider pilots should be taught to turn their aircraft. If you've
never turned your plane off of the runway, you are not going to turn in
an emergency when you need to. Over the years I've seen several gliders
taxi straight into other aircraft, when turning into a smooth field next
to the runway was a completely viable option.

Boggs

Interesting, I just had this discussion with one of the old-time CFIGs in
our club (flies an ASW-19 but not XC), and he is strongly opposed to
experienced pilots maneuvering on the field after landing; says it sets a
bad example for the students (who are taught to roll out straight).
Needless to say, I strongly disagreed with him, pointing out that the
ability to land out of any pattern, and roll out exactly where you
want/need to go, is an important skill that needs to be taught, even if the
PTS doesn't require it!

Then again, he isn't much impressed by my low approaches and circling
patterns to a landing, either...

Kirk 66


Doing my bit to setting a record for thread drift...

I ran into this particular "disconnect" when still obtaining my license; back
then I might've even been sufficiently inexperienced in the ways of human
nature to've bet Real Money it was a passing thing...the "disconnect" I mean.
Yeah, I was that naive!

The "disconnect" to which I refer is that between proponents of training and
flying *ONLY* to practical test standards (PTS) and those who understand the
PTS are but an arbitrary standard that also open a door to a lifetime of
learning about (in this case) soaring. Yeah, for some of the particularly
unfortunate, unlucky or downright deserving, the lifetime may prove pretty
short, but the reality is - given "a normal lifetime" - no one ever continues
flying to only PTS...nor - IMNSHO - should they, particularly if XC (advertent
*or* inadvertent) is in their future.

The reality is every soaring sword is double-edged. Learning how to turn a
rolling-out glider is a useful skill; I've also seen it lead to "convenience
collisions" when used inadvisedly. That's just the way it is. And (as I know)
the Boggs and Kirks of the world understand, not all gliders turn the same way
when rolling out. Duh? Not according to some of those pilots who've had
convenience collisions, I'll bet!

As to the disconnect and its ongoing "weaponizing" in gliderport
conversations-n-criticism, if I take the "Thou shall NOT do anything at your
home gliderport that does not meet PTS," to its logical conclusion, it begs
the question where shall/should Joe Gliderpilot begin to expand his skill set?

This situation seems to me nothing more than yet another superb teaching
opportunity, and to not use it as such lies somewhere between missing an
opportunity, and downright irresponsible.

And before CFIGs jump down my throat, remember the double-edged sword bit. Not
every display of "beyond PTS skills" at the home gliderport is a paragon of
*individual* safety, not to mention group safety...so why not teach it that way?

Bob W.

On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 5:45:23 PM UTC+3, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:55:28 PM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
IMHO every pilot should know 10 different ways to land safely, instead of only one way, to perfection. Accident statistics back up this idea. Many landing accidents happen because a pilot is trying to fly "the same" pattern when something totally different is called for.

And glider pilots should be taught to turn their aircraft. If you've never turned your plane off of the runway, you are not going to turn in an emergency when you need to. Over the years I've seen several gliders taxi straight into other aircraft, when turning into a smooth field next to the runway was a completely viable option.

Boggs

Interesting, I just had this discussion with one of the old-time CFIGs in our club (flies an ASW-19 but not XC), and he is strongly opposed to experienced pilots maneuvering on the field after landing; says it sets a bad example for the students (who are taught to roll out straight). Needless to say, I strongly disagreed with him, pointing out that the ability to land out of any pattern, and roll out exactly where you want/need to go, is an important skill that needs to be taught, even if the PTS doesn't require it!

Then again, he isn't much impressed by my low approaches and circling patterns to a landing, either...

The cure to that is to officially add teaching how to properly manoeuvre during the landing roll as an item to the post-solo syllabus, just like (simulated) competition finishes.

There are sites our club flies from where you will *not* get permission to fly solo unless you know how to clear the rather narrow strip for the next glider.

On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 11:48:35 AM UTC-6, Bruce Hoult wrote:
On Monday, October 19, 2015 at 5:45:23 PM UTC+3, kirk.stant wrote:
On Wednesday, October 14, 2015 at 4:55:28 PM UTC-5, Waveguru wrote:
IMHO every pilot should know 10 different ways to land safely, instead of only one way, to perfection. Accident statistics back up this idea. Many landing accidents happen because a pilot is trying to fly "the same" pattern when something totally different is called for.

And glider pilots should be taught to turn their aircraft. If you've never turned your plane off of the runway, you are not going to turn in an emergency when you need to. Over the years I've seen several gliders taxi straight into other aircraft, when turning into a smooth field next to the runway was a completely viable option.

Boggs

Interesting, I just had this discussion with one of the old-time CFIGs in our club (flies an ASW-19 but not XC), and he is strongly opposed to experienced pilots maneuvering on the field after landing; says it sets a bad example for the students (who are taught to roll out straight). Needless to say, I strongly disagreed with him, pointing out that the ability to land out of any pattern, and roll out exactly where you want/need to go, is an important skill that needs to be taught, even if the PTS doesn't require it!

Then again, he isn't much impressed by my low approaches and circling patterns to a landing, either...

The cure to that is to officially add teaching how to properly manoeuvre during the landing roll as an item to the post-solo syllabus, just like (simulated) competition finishes.

There are sites our club flies from where you will *not* get permission to fly solo unless you know how to clear the rather narrow strip for the next glider.

Ah yes, site checks, the standard at many UK sites and other places. Perhaps the most interesting for me was at the old Lleweni Parc. 75kts on final to land up hill, stopping at the launch point. Alas, on visiting their web site, now gliders and pilots must now keep off the grass, so there is a tarmac runway and landing gliders must roll to the end to clear the runway.

Frank Whiteley

On Mon, 19 Oct 2015 18:45:02 -0700, Frank Whiteley wrote:

Ah yes, site checks, the standard at many UK sites and other places.
Perhaps the most interesting for me was at the old Lleweni Parc. 75kts
on final to land up hill, stopping at the launch point. Alas, on
visiting their web site, now gliders and pilots must now keep off the
grass, so there is a tarmac runway and landing gliders must roll to the
end to clear the runway.

The most interesting site I've flown from is Eden Soaring, which is winch
launch only, and the only site I've flown so far where a site
familiarisation walk round the field is mandatory on your first visit.
The photos here show the field's special features:

http://edensoaring.co.uk/page/?walkaroundthefield

Would I fly there again? In a flash!


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

"Winch launch will never drop the rope anywhere except right in front of the winch unless the rope breaks"

Really? Well I guess I had better get cracking on getting restitution from BC Hydro about those three times a winch cable allegedly dropped across the HV power lines since I now have it on good authority that those incidents never happened.

On Friday, October 16, 2015 at 8:16:07 AM UTC+3, wrote:
"Winch launch will never drop the rope anywhere except right in front of the winch unless the rope breaks"

Really? Well I guess I had better get cracking on getting restitution from BC Hydro about those three times a winch cable allegedly dropped across the HV power lines since I now have it on good authority that those incidents never happened.

I guess it depends on a certain level of skill from the operator :-)

At my local winch site, it's not uncommon in a crosswind with a student pilot to see the glider and cable crossing above a row of trees and even the adjacent river. But the parachute still ends up hitting the ground on the field and 50 meters from the winch. Unless the rope breaks. Then you can have fun.

I couldn't help but add a comment, I am from the Willamette Valley Soaring Club in Oregon. Once a year we do a Safari to the Alvord Desert which is a dry lake 17 miles long and 7 miles wide, that's right there is no end to the runway so to speak.

We have been doing a weeks worth of auto tows since the 1950's and I can say while I have only been a part of this Safari since 2000 I am hooked on auto towing at this location.

All of the variables that have been mentioned exist such as air density, horse power of the car, car weight, length of wire, etc.

Up until this last year we have always used a length of 12 gauge agricultural wire (about $125.00 for 4,000'), we take a new wire every few years to replace the old one. You can tell when it is time to replace the old because the number of wire breaks. Wire breaks are a real pain as it takes a half hour to get the two ends nicro pressed back together and walk the wire to check for kinks. We have used a number of old cars, the 1960's Buick's were the best as we just left them at a farmers ranch and came out, fueled them up, reinstalled the battery and fired them off.
The last care we used as a 92 Cadillac which only lasted about 5 years before the transmission went.
This year we took both a new wire and a take up reel I built. the reel had 4,000' of spectra and was used much as the wire was in that it was run out full length before the tow was started so the only variables in tow were the car speed and the pilots control. ( I had a few very uneasy flights years ago on a pay out winch where the car speed, winch pay out and pilot were all variable).

On the wire we use a tow release on the car with a release cable run to the spotter. On the spectra cable we have a weak link at the reel and the spotter is in the back of the pickup ready to sever the weak link if required.
With our launch system we get a launch of every 10-15 minutes, the launch itself takes 3 minutes and the release altitude is 2,000-2,500' AGL.

Steve R.