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MH370: Malaysia releases satellite analysis



 
 
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  #21  
Old March 27th 14, 10:32 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
Keith Willshaw[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default MH370: Malaysia releases satellite analysis

On 26/03/2014 23:51, Daryl wrote:
On 3/26/2014 4:19 PM, Keith Willshaw wrote:
On 26/03/2014 20:23, Daryl wrote:
On 3/26/2014 1:15 PM, george152 wrote:
On 27/03/14 07:21, Keith Willshaw wrote:

Especially given that the average depth of water in that area is
around
4 km. Finding it will require a towed array.

Keith

First find the debris field.
Then work your way back to begin scanning the ocean floor.
It'll take time and surface ships.
Nukes have other duties than looking for downed aircraft

The debris will have floated for about 100 miles riding the currents. No
help from that.


As it happens you do get some help from that. The winds and currents can
be used to estimate the position of the crash. That technique was used
to find the remains of Air France 447. They combed the likely area using
a towed sidescan sonor until they found the submerged debris field.

Keith


How deep was the area that 447 went down in.


More than 4,000 metres, it was the South Atlantic


This one went down in one
of the deepest oceans. You pretty well have t be right on top of it to
pick up anything. And it has to be done fast before the battery runs
down on the black box. Once the battery is gone, it will never be
located unless some Scifi things creap up. Now I know that the Seaview
could probably find it.


They found AF-447 in similar water depths AFTER the battery had run out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26680633

However it will certainly be harder than for AF-447 if for no other
reason than the location being so remote and if the debris is in a
topologically complex area such as a ravine they may never find it.

Keith

  #22  
Old March 27th 14, 10:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
Daryl[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default MH370: Malaysia releases satellite analysis

On 3/27/2014 3:32 AM, Keith Willshaw wrote:
On 26/03/2014 23:51, Daryl wrote:
On 3/26/2014 4:19 PM, Keith Willshaw wrote:
On 26/03/2014 20:23, Daryl wrote:
On 3/26/2014 1:15 PM, george152 wrote:
On 27/03/14 07:21, Keith Willshaw wrote:

Especially given that the average depth of water in that area is
around
4 km. Finding it will require a towed array.

Keith

First find the debris field.
Then work your way back to begin scanning the ocean floor.
It'll take time and surface ships.
Nukes have other duties than looking for downed aircraft

The debris will have floated for about 100 miles riding the
currents. No
help from that.


As it happens you do get some help from that. The winds and currents can
be used to estimate the position of the crash. That technique was used
to find the remains of Air France 447. They combed the likely area using
a towed sidescan sonor until they found the submerged debris field.

Keith


How deep was the area that 447 went down in.


More than 4,000 metres, it was the South Atlantic


This one went down in one
of the deepest oceans. You pretty well have t be right on top of it to
pick up anything. And it has to be done fast before the battery runs
down on the black box. Once the battery is gone, it will never be
located unless some Scifi things creap up. Now I know that the Seaview
could probably find it.


They found AF-447 in similar water depths AFTER the battery had run out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26680633

However it will certainly be harder than for AF-447 if for no other
reason than the location being so remote and if the debris is in a
topologically complex area such as a ravine they may never find it.

Keith


AF-447 is a red herring. For the most recent, the depth in KMs in that
area is over 7000 or 23,000 feet or almost 5000 feet. That's average
depth. As you stated, add in the mountainous nature it gets even more
difficult. Now, add in that pieces falling off on the way down will go
through many different thermals and water direction and using those
pieces that float will be worthless since it may have gone through many
directional water streams on it's way to the surface.

Yes, it's not impossible that they can find it. But it's highly
improbable when cost is considered. How many millions of dollars will
be spent each day until it becomes no longer financially viable. I
think they are going to hit that limit in the next few days.



--
Visit http://droopyvids.com for free TV and Movies. One of
the Largest Collections of Public Domain and Classic TV on
the Internet.
  #23  
Old March 27th 14, 11:04 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
Jim Wilkins[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default MH370: Malaysia releases satellite analysis


"Daryl" wrote in message
...
On 3/27/2014 3:32 AM, Keith Willshaw wrote:
On 26/03/2014 23:51, Daryl wrote:
On 3/26/2014 4:19 PM, Keith Willshaw wrote:
On 26/03/2014 20:23, Daryl wrote:
On 3/26/2014 1:15 PM, george152 wrote:
On 27/03/14 07:21, Keith Willshaw wrote:

Especially given that the average depth of water in that area
is
around
4 km. Finding it will require a towed array.

Keith

First find the debris field.
Then work your way back to begin scanning the ocean floor.
It'll take time and surface ships.
Nukes have other duties than looking for downed aircraft

The debris will have floated for about 100 miles riding the
currents. No
help from that.


As it happens you do get some help from that. The winds and
currents can
be used to estimate the position of the crash. That technique was
used
to find the remains of Air France 447. They combed the likely
area using
a towed sidescan sonor until they found the submerged debris
field.

Keith

How deep was the area that 447 went down in.


More than 4,000 metres, it was the South Atlantic


This one went down in one
of the deepest oceans. You pretty well have t be right on top of
it to
pick up anything. And it has to be done fast before the battery
runs
down on the black box. Once the battery is gone, it will never be
located unless some Scifi things creap up. Now I know that the
Seaview
could probably find it.


They found AF-447 in similar water depths AFTER the battery had run
out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26680633

However it will certainly be harder than for AF-447 if for no other
reason than the location being so remote and if the debris is in a
topologically complex area such as a ravine they may never find it.

Keith


AF-447 is a red herring. For the most recent, the depth in KMs in
that area is over 7000 or 23,000 feet or almost 5000 feet. That's
average depth. As you stated, add in the mountainous nature it gets
even more difficult. Now, add in that pieces falling off on the way
down will go through many different thermals and water direction and
using those pieces that float will be worthless since it may have
gone through many directional water streams on it's way to the
surface.

Yes, it's not impossible that they can find it. But it's highly
improbable when cost is considered. How many millions of dollars
will be spent each day until it becomes no longer financially
viable. I think they are going to hit that limit in the next few
days.


If the ships and planes have been paid for, does it -really- cost that
much extra to have them performing this task instead of another?
jsw


  #24  
Old March 28th 14, 12:36 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
Daryl[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11
Default MH370: Malaysia releases satellite analysis

On 3/27/2014 4:04 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
"Daryl" wrote in message
...
On 3/27/2014 3:32 AM, Keith Willshaw wrote:
On 26/03/2014 23:51, Daryl wrote:
On 3/26/2014 4:19 PM, Keith Willshaw wrote:
On 26/03/2014 20:23, Daryl wrote:
On 3/26/2014 1:15 PM, george152 wrote:
On 27/03/14 07:21, Keith Willshaw wrote:

Especially given that the average depth of water in that area
is
around
4 km. Finding it will require a towed array.

Keith

First find the debris field.
Then work your way back to begin scanning the ocean floor.
It'll take time and surface ships.
Nukes have other duties than looking for downed aircraft

The debris will have floated for about 100 miles riding the
currents. No
help from that.


As it happens you do get some help from that. The winds and
currents can
be used to estimate the position of the crash. That technique was
used
to find the remains of Air France 447. They combed the likely
area using
a towed sidescan sonor until they found the submerged debris
field.

Keith

How deep was the area that 447 went down in.

More than 4,000 metres, it was the South Atlantic


This one went down in one
of the deepest oceans. You pretty well have t be right on top of
it to
pick up anything. And it has to be done fast before the battery
runs
down on the black box. Once the battery is gone, it will never be
located unless some Scifi things creap up. Now I know that the
Seaview
could probably find it.


They found AF-447 in similar water depths AFTER the battery had run
out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26680633

However it will certainly be harder than for AF-447 if for no other
reason than the location being so remote and if the debris is in a
topologically complex area such as a ravine they may never find it.

Keith


AF-447 is a red herring. For the most recent, the depth in KMs in
that area is over 7000 or 23,000 feet or almost 5000 feet. That's
average depth. As you stated, add in the mountainous nature it gets
even more difficult. Now, add in that pieces falling off on the way
down will go through many different thermals and water direction and
using those pieces that float will be worthless since it may have
gone through many directional water streams on it's way to the
surface.

Yes, it's not impossible that they can find it. But it's highly
improbable when cost is considered. How many millions of dollars
will be spent each day until it becomes no longer financially
viable. I think they are going to hit that limit in the next few
days.


If the ships and planes have been paid for, does it -really- cost that
much extra to have them performing this task instead of another?
jsw



Yes, it does and the cost of fuels, personnel and wear and tear comes
into play. Also, it takes them away from their other missions.

--
Visit http://droopyvids.com for free TV and Movies. One of
the Largest Collections of Public Domain and Classic TV on
the Internet.
  #25  
Old March 28th 14, 11:02 AM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
Keith Willshaw[_6_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default MH370: Malaysia releases satellite analysis

On 27/03/2014 21:12, Daryl wrote:
On 3/27/2014 3:32 AM, Keith Willshaw wrote:
On 26/03/2014 23:51, Daryl wrote:
On 3/26/2014 4:19 PM, Keith Willshaw wrote:
On 26/03/2014 20:23, Daryl wrote:
On 3/26/2014 1:15 PM, george152 wrote:
On 27/03/14 07:21, Keith Willshaw wrote:

Especially given that the average depth of water in that area is
around
4 km. Finding it will require a towed array.

Keith

First find the debris field.
Then work your way back to begin scanning the ocean floor.
It'll take time and surface ships.
Nukes have other duties than looking for downed aircraft

The debris will have floated for about 100 miles riding the
currents. No
help from that.


As it happens you do get some help from that. The winds and currents
can
be used to estimate the position of the crash. That technique was used
to find the remains of Air France 447. They combed the likely area
using
a towed sidescan sonor until they found the submerged debris field.

Keith

How deep was the area that 447 went down in.


More than 4,000 metres, it was the South Atlantic


This one went down in one
of the deepest oceans. You pretty well have t be right on top of it to
pick up anything. And it has to be done fast before the battery runs
down on the black box. Once the battery is gone, it will never be
located unless some Scifi things creap up. Now I know that the Seaview
could probably find it.


They found AF-447 in similar water depths AFTER the battery had run out.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-26680633

However it will certainly be harder than for AF-447 if for no other
reason than the location being so remote and if the debris is in a
topologically complex area such as a ravine they may never find it.

Keith


AF-447 is a red herring. For the most recent, the depth in KMs in that
area is over 7000 or 23,000 feet or almost 5000 feet.


This makes no sense at all.

The deepest point in the Indian Ocean is 8047 m or around 25,000 ft
the average depth is around 3890 metres or 13,000 ft which as it happens
is approx the depth of water that AF-447 lay in.


That's average
depth. As you stated, add in the mountainous nature it gets even more
difficult. Now, add in that pieces falling off on the way down will go
through many different thermals and water direction and using those
pieces that float will be worthless since it may have gone through many
directional water streams on it's way to the surface.

Yes, it's not impossible that they can find it. But it's highly
improbable when cost is considered. How many millions of dollars will
be spent each day until it becomes no longer financially viable. I
think they are going to hit that limit in the next few days.


Given that there is intense interest in China , Malaysia and amongst
operators of the 777 I doubt people are going to lose interest that
quickly. The search for AF-447 started in June 2009 and the wreckage was
finally found in April 2011. Its probable that the first phase will end
in the next few weeks if for no other reason that winter in the southern
ocean is fast approaching. However I would expect a similar phase II
search involving oceanographic reserach vessels to commence in the pring
or summer.

Keith

  #26  
Old March 28th 14, 01:58 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
Jim Wilkins[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default MH370: Malaysia releases satellite analysis

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...
Given that there is intense interest in China , Malaysia and amongst
operators of the 777 I doubt people are going to lose interest that
quickly. The search for AF-447 started in June 2009 and the wreckage
was finally found in April 2011. Its probable that the first phase
will end in the next few weeks if for no other reason that winter in
the southern ocean is fast approaching. However I would expect a
similar phase II search involving oceanographic reserach vessels to
commence in the pring or summer.

Keith



This is the free-swimming robot submarine that found AF 447 in the the
Mid-Atlantic Ridge:
http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=38144
http://boingboing.net/2011/05/06/air...447-how-s.html
"On April 3, researchers spotted the plane's debris field, 13,000 feet
down, smack in the middle of a massive underwater mountain range."

jsw


  #27  
Old March 28th 14, 02:23 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
Jim Wilkins[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 52
Default MH370: Malaysia releases satellite analysis

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message

This is the free-swimming robot submarine that found AF 447 in the
the Mid-Atlantic Ridge:
http://www.whoi.edu/page.do?pid=38144
http://boingboing.net/2011/05/06/air...447-how-s.html
"On April 3, researchers spotted the plane's debris field, 13,000
feet down, smack in the middle of a massive underwater mountain
range."

jsw


To give you an idea of the state of the art,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_glider
"In November 2012, a Liquid Robotics Wave Glider autonomous underwater
glider set a Guinness World Record for "longest distance traveled on
the Earth's surface by a robot" by travelling over 14,000 kilometres
(9,000 mi) on an autonomous journey of just over one year duration."

"In August 2010, a Deep Glider variant of the Seaglider achieved a
repeated 6000-meter operating depth."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberda...rwater_gliders
"... and remain on station for up to six months."

jsw


  #28  
Old March 28th 14, 08:14 PM posted to rec.aviation.military,rec.aviation.piloting
george152
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 158
Default MH370: Malaysia releases satellite analysis

On 28/03/14 23:02, Keith Willshaw wrote:


Given that there is intense interest in China , Malaysia and amongst
operators of the 777 I doubt people are going to lose interest that
quickly. The search for AF-447 started in June 2009 and the wreckage was
finally found in April 2011. Its probable that the first phase will end
in the next few weeks if for no other reason that winter in the southern
ocean is fast approaching. However I would expect a similar phase II
search involving oceanographic reserach vessels to commence in the pring
or summer.

I see according to some new data that the aircraft was burning fuel at a
higher rate so they've knocked 1000 km off the distance travelled

 




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