Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

As the Chief Refinishing Officer (CRO) of my club, let me wholeheartedly agree with JJ. The bottom line is that refinishing an older (club class glider) doesn't make economic sense unless you are doing it yourself because have the time and skills, doing it because of the love of the glider, or doing it because you are a sado masochist.

Here's the math for an ASW-20:

- Moderately crazed ASW-20 in otherwise fair shape. $25K
- Full refinish at retail north of $25K (being generous here)
- Total cost $50K (forget about all the other stuff - instruments, trailer, etc.)

Now, go look at the classifieds. Several nice to very nice ASW-20s for mid $30K. Each of those owners at some point in the near past dropped significant money into those ships that they will never get back.

In your price range, the LS3 that JJ mentions as well as a Pegasus that showed up and maybe one or two others would be the best bets. As others have mentioned, a partnership would let you get into an LS4, ASW-20, ASW-24 etc in much better shape which would let you spend more time flying and less time fettling.

p3







On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:09:51 AM UTC-4, wrote:
Michael,
There’s an elephant in the room that nobody’s talking about. Your price range means older ships, older ships have old gelcoat. Properly refinishing a 15 meter ship is going to cost a minimum of 20K! If you buy a ship with so-so finish, your going to sell it a few years down the road with less than so-so finish! My number one priority would be buying a ship with recent refinish in Urethane. Number 2 priority would be good instruments, number 3 priority would be trailer, then comes auto hookup’s, disc brakes, nose tow hook, etc. I am a prior owner the LS-3a that Stowers is brokering at Minden. Feel free to contact me for any questions about that bird.
JJ

One remark I would like to make to Micheal N. that has not been made so far on this thread as to do with the 3000 hrs inspection that a certified A/C might require. In the cohort of gliders that you are considering (70s - 80s) you may find A/C getting close to this milestone. This may have to be considered in your purchase decision.

In my case, getting the inspection and maintenance for a life extension to 6000 hrs was a "piece of cake". That was due in part because of the great maintenance job that the two previous owners did on our ASW-20 (wink,wink, THX Uli), and also for the great engineering and support from AS. The few pieces that we had to change (rudder cable, forward and aft carry-through pins, rudder bottom hinge) were easy to obtain, relatively inexpensive and a charm to install. A member at my club, who also had to get the 6000 hrs life extension for his non-AS german glider would have a completely different and more expensive story to tell.

My point, for Micheal N., is not to do any "my glider vs your glider" bashing, but to point out that this may be an important variable to add in your purchase equation. As a first owner, you should be aware of this.

As for the "Jesus Flaps"... they are a lot of fun but you have to used with care. Only deploy when you know you are making the field. I have read, I believe in the POH, that the ASW-20 with full spoilers and the "JF" gets an incredible 4:1 glide ratio. From the cockpit, this almost look like going straight down :-0


On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 18:48:53 UTC-4, wrote:
I have about 3,000 hours on various ASWs incl. ASW 20, 20B,(both without winglets) and now ASW 27. I found the ASW 20 to be a wonderful machine, but, as others have said, the full landing flap has to be used carefully. My brother was more of an S-H man having owned a Standard Cirrus, Mini-Nimbus and then a Ventus B. He did very well with them in competitions. Finally, he bought a share in an ASW 20C. After his first flight his only comment was " now I know why you guys did so well in the ASW 20s". He found the handling to be quite a bit better than that of the Ventus B. I also found that the ASW 20B and Ventus B were equals in almost all conditions but the ASW had the handling edge.

To get an idea of what a refinish entails, take a look at Richard's work on his Ventus B... http://craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

140.5 hrs not counting build-up (gear, TOST hook, belts, instruments, registration marks/contest ID, rudder, etc), weighing. All in a wonderful workshop with all the right gear and skills to do it. That's just for the fuselage, now add in the wings.

Conventional wisdom is 400 hours +/- for a complete standard class glider. In our experience (decent shop, decent skills, decent equipment) we have taken about 10-15% more time, but we've been starting with basket cases, so strip down to glass.


On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 2:12:31 PM UTC-4, Dan Daly wrote:
To get an idea of what a refinish entails, take a look at Richard's work on his Ventus B... http://craggyaero.com/ventus.htm

140.5 hrs not counting build-up (gear, TOST hook, belts, instruments, registration marks/contest ID, rudder, etc), weighing. All in a wonderful workshop with all the right gear and skills to do it. That's just for the fuselage, now add in the wings.

After reading JJ's post I went through the wings and wheels For Sale Ads.
There are at least two refinished with urethane LS3a's in very good condition in there for the mid 20's. With Clamshell trailers and updated instruments and new water bags. Jeez that's a lot of glider for the mid 20's IMHO.

I've owned both the ASW20 and a LS3a and while some say the ASW 20 will beat a LS3a, that might be true, might not, it's very very close.
The LS3 and LS3a are wonderful ships, big cockpit, big panel, easier to fly than a -20, launch and land like a piece of cake and do get 40/1 And that landing gear lever, Dick Johnson wrote it was the best system he ever saw, and he was right, soooo easy and fast.
About 25k- that's a great price! what's not to like about that ??

Thanks guys, I am looking at finish, or last time refinished as my number 1 factor in deciding which of these era gliders to buy.

In fact this brings up a question important to my current top 5 candidate list:
One of the candidates is a DG 200, the current owner who I feel is trying to be accurate and honest in his representation of the glider during our phone calls.
States the glider has the original finish in good condition, with no crazing in the gel coat, but some cracking in the area of the dive brakes.
He is indicating that DG gliders of the era were very well finished, and do not have a history of needing to be refinished often.
Again, he seems to be very honest and forthright to me, but I do not have glider purchase history experience to back up my impression.

Can anyone comment on the DG 200 - 202 finish quality over time?
I am aware the finish quality over time is highly affected by whether the glider was stored, or left out in the elements. I am asking more in general, or typical wear.

Thanks again for all the great information. When I started this thread I would never have thought I'd get this much information. I appreciate it, and I am listening and taking this discussion heavily into my decision process.

Originally Posted by KarlBoutin

One remark I would like to make to Micheal N. that has not been made so far on this thread as to do with the 3000 hrs inspection that a certified A/C might require. In the cohort of gliders that you are considering (70s - 80s) you may find A/C getting close to this milestone. This may have to be considered in your purchase decision.

In my case, getting the inspection and maintenance for a life extension to 6000 hrs was a "piece of cake". That was due in part because of the great maintenance job that the two previous owners did on our ASW-20 (wink,wink, THX Uli), and also for the great engineering and support from AS. The few pieces that we had to change (rudder cable, forward and aft carry-through pins, rudder bottom hinge) were easy to obtain, relatively inexpensive and a charm to install. A member at my club, who also had to get the 6000 hrs life extension for his non-AS german glider would have a completely different and more expensive story to tell.

My point, for Micheal N., is not to do any "my glider vs your glider" bashing, but to point out that this may be an important variable to add in your purchase equation. As a first owner, you should be aware of this.

As for the "Jesus Flaps"... they are a lot of fun but you have to used with care. Only deploy when you know you are making the field. I have read, I believe in the POH, that the ASW-20 with full spoilers and the "JF" gets an incredible 4:1 glide ratio. From the cockpit, this almost look like going straight down :-0


On Wednesday, 3 April 2019 18:48:53 UTC-4, wrote:
I have about 3,000 hours on various ASWs incl. ASW 20, 20B,(both without winglets) and now ASW 27. I found the ASW 20 to be a wonderful machine, but, as others have said, the full landing flap has to be used carefully. My brother was more of an S-H man having owned a Standard Cirrus, Mini-Nimbus and then a Ventus B. He did very well with them in competitions. Finally, he bought a share in an ASW 20C. After his first flight his only comment was " now I know why you guys did so well in the ASW 20s". He found the handling to be quite a bit better than that of the Ventus B. I also found that the ASW 20B and Ventus B were equals in almost all conditions but the ASW had the handling edge.

Lurker for a while as well as a new 20a driver . I was dying to try the flaps I heard about so much . I did a test pattern at 2,000 ft to familiarize myself with the descent angle . And Damn for me it's like being back in a 1-26 with the spoilers out save for better visibility over the nose . I tossed in a slip as well but it didn't seem to make much difference . I pulled spoilers in and flared a bit higher as I had 3/4 of a 2000' runway and stopped in 600' after touchdown without brakes . I can honestly say knowing the option is there for an off field landing helps reduce stress. But as others noted make sure you have the field made and only use them when on final .

On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 3:26:21 PM UTC-4, Michael N. wrote:
Thanks guys, I am looking at finish, or last time refinished as my number 1 factor in deciding which of these era gliders to buy.

In fact this brings up a question important to my current top 5 candidate list:
One of the candidates is a DG 200, the current owner who I feel is trying to be accurate and honest in his representation of the glider during our phone calls.
States the glider has the original finish in good condition, with no crazing in the gel coat, but some cracking in the area of the dive brakes.
He is indicating that DG gliders of the era were very well finished, and do not have a history of needing to be refinished often.
Again, he seems to be very honest and forthright to me, but I do not have glider purchase history experience to back up my impression.

Can anyone comment on the DG 200 - 202 finish quality over time?
I am aware the finish quality over time is highly affected by whether the glider was stored, or left out in the elements. I am asking more in general, or typical wear.

Thanks again for all the great information. When I started this thread I would never have thought I'd get this much information. I appreciate it, and I am listening and taking this discussion heavily into my decision process.

DG's of that era were finished with Scwabellack(sp?). It generally held up better than the Vorgelat used on AS and SH ships of that time. A crack or 2 around the spoiler box is not uncommon.
UH

"After reading JJ's post I went through the wings and wheels For Sale Ads.
There are at least two refinished with urethane LS3a's in very good condition in there for the mid 20's. With Clamshell trailers and updated instruments and new water bags. Jeez that's a lot of glider for the mid 20's IMHO.

I've owned both the ASW20 and a LS3a and while some say the ASW 20 will beat a LS3a, that might be true, might not, it's very very close.
The LS3 and LS3a are wonderful ships, big cockpit, big panel, easier to fly than a -20, launch and land like a piece of cake and do get 40/1 And that landing gear lever, Dick Johnson wrote it was the best system he ever saw, and he was right, soooo easy and fast.
About 25k- that's a great price! what's not to like about that ?? "

Yep, looking at those too. In fact, I have to say that there are a several choices out on wings and wheels, that are great performing gliders, and not all but many with good re-finishes, avionics, and trailers. I think I may be doing this at the right time :-)

I did have one question maybe I could get some enlightenment on regarding the LS3 vs LS3a, I have read a lot about these lately in my searching. The one question I had is that Dick Johnson reported a somewhat less L/D rating of the LS3a of around 38 vs around 41 in the original LS3.
I'm sure I am going to get a few comment like "at your level you shouldn't care" and maybe that's right, but I'd like to know if the LS3a is in fact worse in glide performance, or maybe when it was being tested, conditions were not favorable? Or any other insight on this?

Thanks again for this fantastic discussion, which I do appreciate. I am trying to get a list of top 5 gliders I want to actually see in the next few weeks and this has been very helpful.

Mike

I co-own a 1982 DG-101G. The original finish is in amazingly good shape overall except for a few dings here and there from assembly and handling. I'd say that what you are hearing about the virtues of Schwabbellack are true. I can't see our ship needing a refinish anytime in the foreseeable future.

The 200 may be worth a careful look.

Matt