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Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?



 
 
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  #81  
Old April 5th 19, 05:37 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Jonathon May
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 82
Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

At 15:01 05 April 2019, Tango Eight wrote:
On Friday, April 5, 2019 at 10:31:48 AM UTC-4,

wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 8:07:42 PM UTC-4,

son_of_flubber wrote:
On Thursday, April 4, 2019 at 11:46:26 AM UTC-4, Papa3

wrote:
=20
Here's the math for an ASW-20:=20
=20
- Moderately crazed ASW-20 in otherwise fair shape.

$25K
- Full refinish at retail north of $25K (being generous

here)
- Total cost $50K (forget about all the other stuff -

instruments,
t=
railer, etc.)
=20
Now, go look at the classifieds. Several nice to very nice

ASW-20s
f=
or mid $30K. =20
=20
So a fair price for a "Moderately crazed ASW-20 in

otherwise fair
shape=
" would be $8K. Invest $25-30K in repair and you'd get a good

glider for
=
$33-38K. Buyer deserves some compensation for the hassle,

risk and delay
o=
f refurbishment.
=20
People who're setting unreasonably high prices for their

poor
condition=
gliders are hurting themselves, and hurting the sport by

making it harder
=
for young people to get into the sport.
=20
I suggest that people who want to get into the sport start

offering a
r=
easonable price for trashed gliders $5-8K. Sellers (or the

executors of
the=
ir estates) will eventually come to their senses.
=20
Here is the reality from somebody who has been doing this

for more than
2=
decades.
It is almost impossible to buy a glider at a price the seller will

accept=
, refinish it commercially, and sell it at a favorable price. If it

was
tha=
t easy, everybody would be doing it, including the refinish

people.
My experience is that a refinish adds somewhere around half

the
commercia=
l cost to the salable value of the glider.
A recent example.
Club member buys a Cirrus 75 with older Komet trailer for

$12000.
Over 2 years he refinished it in my shop. It required almost

exactly 400
=
hours, mostly his labor. Materials(polyester finish) cost about

$1000.
He now has a very nice glider that may get $22K or so on the

market.
=20
Someone wanting to enter the market that does not have the

resources to
p=
ay for a "nice"(defined as not expecting to need a refinish

anytime soon)
g=
lider, is going to have to settle for an older glider needing clean

up and
=
care and fly it for a few years while saving up the dough for a

nicer
glide=
r.
=20
UH


The other part of the reality is the refinished 20 in question has

an
unusu=
al history and was sold very cheap (distress sale cheap) at one

point.
The=
seller can sell at an attractive price and do very well. Good for

him.
T=
his isn't a "market", it's a one off. =20

Would be buyers have little cause for whining at this time.

Great
selectio=
n of very flyable, decent performance stuff out there at very

reasonable
pr=
ices. If you want nice, one way or another you pony up. =20

T8


You do pay a premium for Flaps,it may be better to go for a std
15M ship LS4 would be good or a asw19.


  #82  
Old April 5th 19, 07:17 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
BobW
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Posts: 504
Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one andwhy?

On 4/5/2019 10:37 AM, Jonathon May wrote:
Snip...

You do pay a premium for Flaps,it may be better to go for a std 15M ship
LS4 would be good or a asw19.


The 'premium' bit is true 'in general' but - going deeper into the weeds, here
- arguably not universally so in the 1st-generation-glass world. Even amongst
those glass ships with the FX67K-150/170 'one-trick-pony' airfoil, those
relying *exclusively* on their flaps as large-deflection landing-drag devices,
tend to be 'somewhat discounted' in the pricing market from - so it seems to
me - flapped *and* spoilered ships (e.g. LS-3X, DG-20X, AS W-20 and (even)
Mini-Nimbus/Mosquito.

Think PIK-20A/B (no gelcoat!), Zuni and - while not glass - SGS 1-35 and Nugget.

With the bulk of my time in an early-model Zuni, I never felt 'significantly
handicapped' by the ship's (in?)ability to 'competitively go XC' against newer
15-meter ships - wet (internally *or* externally [dry chuckle]) or dry.

That airfoil is also a pussycat, IMO.

YMMV

Bob W.

---
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  #83  
Old April 5th 19, 07:20 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 580
Default Airfoils...

Once an LS-3 gets dirty or wet, the performance loss is drastic - the
20 hardly suffers. One clear point pro ASW-20.

Cheers
Andreas


Regarding rain, we discovered the LS-3--like the PIK 20B that was notorious for falling out of the sky when wet--responded well to using a little more flap than usual. All of the gliders that used that airfoil at the time (LS-3/3a, PIK, Mosquito, Mini Nimbus, others) had the same issue and, I suspect, would respond to the same technique.

Another solution that some of us employed was, after the contour/profile sanding, leaving the wing at about 400 grit finish instead of polishing it up.. The water drops didn't bead up so the performance effect wasn't as great. I know one pilot who flew his LS-3 at 220 grit but he joked about having to sand the bugs off.

Speaking of bugs, we don't often have to deal with insects building up on the wing to the same extent as in Europe. So performance in the rain is the concern. I agree the ASW 20 is affected to a much lesser degree.

Chip Bearden

  #84  
Old April 5th 19, 07:44 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 478
Default Airfoils...

Just get a 1-26.
  #85  
Old April 5th 19, 08:06 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Matt Herron (Sr)
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Posts: 26
Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

A few words about finish. Don't discount buying an older glider with gel coat in fairly good but far from perfect condition. Until I had my LS-6 refinished in poly a few years ago, I would spend a couple of afternoons at the beginning of every season touching up the wings with patches of fresh gel coat from my friendly TAP plastics distributor. Crazed areas yield fairly easily to sanding followed by brushing on fresh gel coat followed by wet and dry sanding down to 1000 or 1200 grit.

If you're accustomed to hand work, it's not a hard job. I doubt that I ever spent more than ten hours at it, probably less. The patches came out beautifully fair and smooth, although they were visible (adding the correct amount of yellow tint is tricky), and I never noticed any loss of performance with the glider.

However, if you're not accustomed to hand work I wouldn't recommend this -- or at least practice on a spare piece of fiberglass until you get it right!
  #86  
Old April 5th 19, 09:38 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 1
Default Buying LS3a or ASW20a? ~$25k cross country glider. Which one and why?

ia m from europe and followed this "buying a 15m flapped glider" discussion.. i want to congratulate you guys to the civilised, friendly and informed exchange of ideas on that topic. in some other forums for gliding people are much more rude.
i personally fly a standard class glider and don´t think the difference in performance is that great if you don´t fly with MC settings above 2,5m/sec.
to get a nice trailer, which has been mentioned here, and that the ship will not need too much refurbishing soon is more im portant in my opinion. plus, wether you feel comfortable in the cockpit. i guess back pain after 3 hours equals -10 performance points.
  #89  
Old April 6th 19, 06:43 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 580
Default Airfoils...

I fear that bugs are a thing of the past at least in Germany where I
fly.

During the last five years it gradually got worse (or better?) until
last year I hardly ever had any noticeable amount of bugs on the wings
anymore.

Corresponding to that the number of birds has decreased dramatically,
too.


Andreas,

Does that mean that bug wipers--which we never see here--are becoming an historical artifact?

Chip Bearden
 




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