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Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2



 
 
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  #71  
Old April 23rd 21, 05:19 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
RW[_2_]
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Posts: 70
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 3:18:49 PM UTC-7, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 12:19:02 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 8:58:06 AM UTC-6, jfitch wrote:
I'm sorry, was that a revelation for you? That is what you do with a motorglider. The purist has exactly the same (or better) flight opportunity on a crummy day, except at the termination of the flight they may have to land and get an air or ground retrieve, an inconvenience. The motor in a glider is and always has been a convenience item. In fact, the purist has a *better* opportunity on a crummy day, because he can dump ballast and keep soaring in conditions that the motorglider cannot. On one flight I got home by this very fact, when I would otherwise have had to start the motor, effectively landed out - the motor had been removed for modification and the glider was 150 lbs lighter allowing the extra climb needed for final glide.

You continue to conflate 'convenience' with 'safety'. Look the terms up if you are confused by them.

If you tell me that some pilot started the motor low over unlandable terrain, then that pilot is a fool living on borrowed time, and would be regardless of the type of glider he was flying.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 4:54:59 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 3:55:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:05:26 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
"I'd rather have a motor and not need it than need a motor it and not have it."

However, I can't afford a motorglider and the associated insurance costs and maintenance expenses. But I don't approve of the "class warfare" tactics promoted by "Old Bob." Got a lot of MG friends, as well as "purists." This thread should die.
Mark, how can there be class warfare, we all can afford do do what we want. Old Bob
Finally found a honest motorglider comment on OLC. Yes, just yesterday I was resting from a visit from the doctor and reading the OLC results from Perry, S.C. One motorglider pilot stated that he was not doing well and the conditions were not good so he started his motor and went back home. The purist did not have that opportunity especially on a crummy day. Old Bob

I'm a new glider pilot, who has no significant experience with motorgliders (other than going for a flight in a Dimona TMG). One of the things my (recent) training emphasized with regard to flying a MG was that you should NEVER fly to an area that you would need the motor to get out of if there were no safe land-out options available. In other words, your mindset, when flying a motorglider, should be the SAME as when flying a "pure" glider, because you can not 100% depend on the reliability of the motor to start. I believe this is the point many are making here.

However, it would seem that in reality this is not always the case. This has been evidenced by a few recent high-profile crashes, including that of Sebastian Kawa. The reality is that having a motor seems to give some pilots (not all, admittedly), a sense of security that allows them to take additional risks, and thus get an advantage from it. Technology continues to improve, and reliability of these motors seems to be getting better, at least what I can tell from reading. And as such, "Old Bob" does make a valid point. The question I have is "how many MG pilots, in actual practice, fly their MG like a pure sailplane, not putting themselves in situations where they would need to depend on their motor?"

I actually fly more conservatively than I flew pure gliders. The main reason is that a MG is heavier and needs a better field. Also in weak conditions pure gliders have huge advantage. Saying that MG have advantage is a pile of BS. It is not a MG that gives people advantage is the mindset of being lucky, many pure glider pilot have the same mindset that is based on the way they think rather than reality. I am sure there is someone out there thinking that a picture of Jesus in the glider will bring that person home. Neither has bases in reality.

I agree with my country man Andrzej.
I fly both, pure and MG.
Al and I are those who one of you said roam Uvalde Hills in 2016 Sports.
You all didnt notice for this 570km task we took only one thermal on the flat south lands. All flight was 800-2000 ft below cloud base to read the clouds and plan, sometimes argue easier way. All the Hills flight we had security of the airfield( 1000ft arrival).
Old Bob in my pure SZD55 I plan for 500ft agl to my new home base (I keep switching them like my girlfriends in the past (I know I'm beatifull, and if you don't believe me call my mother 01148781286679))
Ryszard
  #72  
Old April 23rd 21, 06:09 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 1,134
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

Bob, you keep saying "there is an advantage". What advantage, exactly? Are you suggesting that in this case, the MG pilot was too low to reach a safe landing site when he started his motor? If so give us the link to his IGC file (or date and name), so that we may see this. I doubt you will because I doubt you can. "A much appreciated comment..." - do your MG friends commonly lie about starting the motor? It is right there in the IGC file for anyone to see. I'd be more than happy with a low save rule for contests where starting your motor - or thermaling - too low for a safe landing meant a DSQ, the so called 'hard deck' rule. It would affect more purists than MG pilots, I'll wager.

Of course there are pilots who fly low into unlandable terrain. I knew two, they did the same thing while flying non MG gliders and eventually came to grief. The motor didn't change their attitude, at most it delayed the inevitable. Kawa's accident isn't really a surprise, his risk tolerance is self documented.

I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it..
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:10:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:58:06 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
I'm sorry, was that a revelation for you? That is what you do with a motorglider. The purist has exactly the same (or better) flight opportunity on a crummy day, except at the termination of the flight they may have to land and get an air or ground retrieve, an inconvenience. The motor in a glider is and always has been a convenience item. In fact, the purist has a *better* opportunity on a crummy day, because he can dump ballast and keep soaring in conditions that the motorglider cannot. On one flight I got home by this very fact, when I would otherwise have had to start the motor, effectively landed out - the motor had been removed for modification and the glider was 150 lbs lighter allowing the extra climb needed for final glide.

You continue to conflate 'convenience' with 'safety'. Look the terms up if you are confused by them.

If you tell me that some pilot started the motor low over unlandable terrain, then that pilot is a fool living on borrowed time, and would be regardless of the type of glider he was flying.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 4:54:59 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 3:55:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:05:26 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
"I'd rather have a motor and not need it than need a motor it and not have it."

However, I can't afford a motorglider and the associated insurance costs and maintenance expenses. But I don't approve of the "class warfare" tactics promoted by "Old Bob." Got a lot of MG friends, as well as "purists." This thread should die.
Mark, how can there be class warfare, we all can afford do do what we want. Old Bob
Finally found a honest motorglider comment on OLC. Yes, just yesterday I was resting from a visit from the doctor and reading the OLC results from Perry, S.C. One motorglider pilot stated that he was not doing well and the conditions were not good so he started his motor and went back home. The purist did not have that opportunity especially on a crummy day. Old Bob

Good morning Fitch, no, the comment was not a revelation, it was a much appreciated comment from a motorglider pilot. It further confirms that there is an advantage from the motorglider vs the purist, maybe you should not abrogate the fact that there is an advantage. Your friend, Old Bob

  #73  
Old April 23rd 21, 12:41 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
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Posts: 281
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 1:09:58 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Bob, you keep saying "there is an advantage". What advantage, exactly? Are you suggesting that in this case, the MG pilot was too low to reach a safe landing site when he started his motor? If so give us the link to his IGC file (or date and name), so that we may see this. I doubt you will because I doubt you can. "A much appreciated comment..." - do your MG friends commonly lie about starting the motor? It is right there in the IGC file for anyone to see. I'd be more than happy with a low save rule for contests where starting your motor - or thermaling - too low for a safe landing meant a DSQ, the so called 'hard deck' rule. It would affect more purists than MG pilots, I'll wager.

Of course there are pilots who fly low into unlandable terrain. I knew two, they did the same thing while flying non MG gliders and eventually came to grief. The motor didn't change their attitude, at most it delayed the inevitable. Kawa's accident isn't really a surprise, his risk tolerance is self documented.

I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:10:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:58:06 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
I'm sorry, was that a revelation for you? That is what you do with a motorglider. The purist has exactly the same (or better) flight opportunity on a crummy day, except at the termination of the flight they may have to land and get an air or ground retrieve, an inconvenience. The motor in a glider is and always has been a convenience item. In fact, the purist has a *better* opportunity on a crummy day, because he can dump ballast and keep soaring in conditions that the motorglider cannot. On one flight I got home by this very fact, when I would otherwise have had to start the motor, effectively landed out - the motor had been removed for modification and the glider was 150 lbs lighter allowing the extra climb needed for final glide.

You continue to conflate 'convenience' with 'safety'. Look the terms up if you are confused by them.

If you tell me that some pilot started the motor low over unlandable terrain, then that pilot is a fool living on borrowed time, and would be regardless of the type of glider he was flying.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 4:54:59 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 3:55:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:05:26 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
"I'd rather have a motor and not need it than need a motor it and not have it."

However, I can't afford a motorglider and the associated insurance costs and maintenance expenses. But I don't approve of the "class warfare" tactics promoted by "Old Bob." Got a lot of MG friends, as well as "purists." This thread should die.
Mark, how can there be class warfare, we all can afford do do what we want. Old Bob
Finally found a honest motorglider comment on OLC. Yes, just yesterday I was resting from a visit from the doctor and reading the OLC results from Perry, S.C. One motorglider pilot stated that he was not doing well and the conditions were not good so he started his motor and went back home. The purist did not have that opportunity especially on a crummy day. Old Bob

Good morning Fitch, no, the comment was not a revelation, it was a much appreciated comment from a motorglider pilot. It further confirms that there is an advantage from the motorglider vs the purist, maybe you should not abrogate the fact that there is an advantage. Your friend, Old Bob

Good morning my friend Fitch, hopefully you got a good night sleep and had no nightmares of a purist recovering from a low save to make it home for dinner. Just yesterday I got a call from Puerto Rico, it was a motorglider friend who offered to let me fly his JS3 MJ. I very quickly told him NO, why, because he would take a picture of me in his motorglider and send it to Seminole Lakes Motorglider Club and all the MG pilots would fall over laughing.
Seriously, IMHO there is a big advantage to the MG, being able to stretch it out a bit further to gain an advantage is a big plus on the side of the motorglider, simply stated, it prolongs a flight in certain situations, increases the ability to complete task or objectives without otherwise terminating the flight, that in and of itself is a huge advantage. Motorgliders and sustainers need to be scored in a class by themselves. Your friend and purist, Old Bob
  #74  
Old April 23rd 21, 01:32 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Glenn Betzoldt[_2_]
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Posts: 12
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 7:41:24 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 1:09:58 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Bob, you keep saying "there is an advantage". What advantage, exactly? Are you suggesting that in this case, the MG pilot was too low to reach a safe landing site when he started his motor? If so give us the link to his IGC file (or date and name), so that we may see this. I doubt you will because I doubt you can. "A much appreciated comment..." - do your MG friends commonly lie about starting the motor? It is right there in the IGC file for anyone to see. I'd be more than happy with a low save rule for contests where starting your motor - or thermaling - too low for a safe landing meant a DSQ, the so called 'hard deck' rule. It would affect more purists than MG pilots, I'll wager.

Of course there are pilots who fly low into unlandable terrain. I knew two, they did the same thing while flying non MG gliders and eventually came to grief. The motor didn't change their attitude, at most it delayed the inevitable. Kawa's accident isn't really a surprise, his risk tolerance is self documented.

I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:10:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:58:06 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
I'm sorry, was that a revelation for you? That is what you do with a motorglider. The purist has exactly the same (or better) flight opportunity on a crummy day, except at the termination of the flight they may have to land and get an air or ground retrieve, an inconvenience. The motor in a glider is and always has been a convenience item. In fact, the purist has a *better* opportunity on a crummy day, because he can dump ballast and keep soaring in conditions that the motorglider cannot. On one flight I got home by this very fact, when I would otherwise have had to start the motor, effectively landed out - the motor had been removed for modification and the glider was 150 lbs lighter allowing the extra climb needed for final glide.

You continue to conflate 'convenience' with 'safety'. Look the terms up if you are confused by them.

If you tell me that some pilot started the motor low over unlandable terrain, then that pilot is a fool living on borrowed time, and would be regardless of the type of glider he was flying.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 4:54:59 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 3:55:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:05:26 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
"I'd rather have a motor and not need it than need a motor it and not have it."

However, I can't afford a motorglider and the associated insurance costs and maintenance expenses. But I don't approve of the "class warfare" tactics promoted by "Old Bob." Got a lot of MG friends, as well as "purists." This thread should die.
Mark, how can there be class warfare, we all can afford do do what we want. Old Bob
Finally found a honest motorglider comment on OLC. Yes, just yesterday I was resting from a visit from the doctor and reading the OLC results from Perry, S.C. One motorglider pilot stated that he was not doing well and the conditions were not good so he started his motor and went back home.. The purist did not have that opportunity especially on a crummy day. Old Bob
Good morning Fitch, no, the comment was not a revelation, it was a much appreciated comment from a motorglider pilot. It further confirms that there is an advantage from the motorglider vs the purist, maybe you should not abrogate the fact that there is an advantage. Your friend, Old Bob

Good morning my friend Fitch, hopefully you got a good night sleep and had no nightmares of a purist recovering from a low save to make it home for dinner. Just yesterday I got a call from Puerto Rico, it was a motorglider friend who offered to let me fly his JS3 MJ. I very quickly told him NO, why, because he would take a picture of me in his motorglider and send it to Seminole Lakes Motorglider Club and all the MG pilots would fall over laughing.
Seriously, IMHO there is a big advantage to the MG, being able to stretch it out a bit further to gain an advantage is a big plus on the side of the motorglider, simply stated, it prolongs a flight in certain situations, increases the ability to complete task or objectives without otherwise terminating the flight, that in and of itself is a huge advantage. Motorgliders and sustainers need to be scored in a class by themselves. Your friend and purist, Old Bob



Since you have never flown a motor glider you real don't know much about them . You have the advantage because you can drop your ballast when things get weak at the end of the day, we have to carry our box of nuts and bolts back home. Also they are scored the same way as you, when we start the engine the flight is over just like your flight when you land out. It's just we can fly home and park it. You have a bigger advantage than someone who has no crew and has to call a uber for a ride back to get car and trailer then drive back to get glider (right Tony). You should be scored in a different class than the guy with no crew. Also I'm sure you are familiar with the saying " the only time you can have too much fuel onboard is when you are on fire"
Bob why don't you come up with another more positive topic to vent on instead of try to alienate the glider community.
Glennnnnnnnnnnnn
  #75  
Old April 23rd 21, 03:12 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Mark Mocho
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Posts: 108
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

Bob why don't you come up with another more positive topic to vent on instead of try to alienate the glider community.

I Second the Motion. Let this thread DIE!


  #76  
Old April 23rd 21, 03:36 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
jfitch
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Posts: 1,134
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

Good morning Bob (you can call me Jon, we should be on a first name basis by now). You keep talking of this mysterious ethereal "advantage", and are never able to actually describe it. How does an MG 'prolong a flight in certain situations' or "complete task...without otherwise terminating the flight"? The soaring flight terminates the instant the motor is started. The motor should only be started with a landing site within sure glide range. The continue vs. start engine/start pattern decision making is identical, in many cases favoring the non glider due to the increased time and pilot workload involved in the motor. Yes, a MG can continue beyond the last safe landing site, as can a purist - insurance claims are riddled with both.

You have repeatedly made an assertion without a shred of evidence - evidence that should be easy to find for such "a huge advantage", and you assert it while admitting no experience or knowledge of the subject. If what you said were true, the podium at nationals would be crowded with MG pilots. How many MGs were represented on the podium (or even the top 5) in the last several 18 meter nationals? (hint: none).
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 4:41:24 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 1:09:58 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Bob, you keep saying "there is an advantage". What advantage, exactly? Are you suggesting that in this case, the MG pilot was too low to reach a safe landing site when he started his motor? If so give us the link to his IGC file (or date and name), so that we may see this. I doubt you will because I doubt you can. "A much appreciated comment..." - do your MG friends commonly lie about starting the motor? It is right there in the IGC file for anyone to see. I'd be more than happy with a low save rule for contests where starting your motor - or thermaling - too low for a safe landing meant a DSQ, the so called 'hard deck' rule. It would affect more purists than MG pilots, I'll wager.

Of course there are pilots who fly low into unlandable terrain. I knew two, they did the same thing while flying non MG gliders and eventually came to grief. The motor didn't change their attitude, at most it delayed the inevitable. Kawa's accident isn't really a surprise, his risk tolerance is self documented.

I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:10:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:58:06 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
I'm sorry, was that a revelation for you? That is what you do with a motorglider. The purist has exactly the same (or better) flight opportunity on a crummy day, except at the termination of the flight they may have to land and get an air or ground retrieve, an inconvenience. The motor in a glider is and always has been a convenience item. In fact, the purist has a *better* opportunity on a crummy day, because he can dump ballast and keep soaring in conditions that the motorglider cannot. On one flight I got home by this very fact, when I would otherwise have had to start the motor, effectively landed out - the motor had been removed for modification and the glider was 150 lbs lighter allowing the extra climb needed for final glide.

You continue to conflate 'convenience' with 'safety'. Look the terms up if you are confused by them.

If you tell me that some pilot started the motor low over unlandable terrain, then that pilot is a fool living on borrowed time, and would be regardless of the type of glider he was flying.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 4:54:59 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 3:55:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:05:26 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
"I'd rather have a motor and not need it than need a motor it and not have it."

However, I can't afford a motorglider and the associated insurance costs and maintenance expenses. But I don't approve of the "class warfare" tactics promoted by "Old Bob." Got a lot of MG friends, as well as "purists." This thread should die.
Mark, how can there be class warfare, we all can afford do do what we want. Old Bob
Finally found a honest motorglider comment on OLC. Yes, just yesterday I was resting from a visit from the doctor and reading the OLC results from Perry, S.C. One motorglider pilot stated that he was not doing well and the conditions were not good so he started his motor and went back home.. The purist did not have that opportunity especially on a crummy day. Old Bob
Good morning Fitch, no, the comment was not a revelation, it was a much appreciated comment from a motorglider pilot. It further confirms that there is an advantage from the motorglider vs the purist, maybe you should not abrogate the fact that there is an advantage. Your friend, Old Bob

Good morning my friend Fitch, hopefully you got a good night sleep and had no nightmares of a purist recovering from a low save to make it home for dinner. Just yesterday I got a call from Puerto Rico, it was a motorglider friend who offered to let me fly his JS3 MJ. I very quickly told him NO, why, because he would take a picture of me in his motorglider and send it to Seminole Lakes Motorglider Club and all the MG pilots would fall over laughing.
Seriously, IMHO there is a big advantage to the MG, being able to stretch it out a bit further to gain an advantage is a big plus on the side of the motorglider, simply stated, it prolongs a flight in certain situations, increases the ability to complete task or objectives without otherwise terminating the flight, that in and of itself is a huge advantage. Motorgliders and sustainers need to be scored in a class by themselves. Your friend and purist, Old Bob

  #77  
Old April 23rd 21, 08:46 PM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 281
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 10:36:48 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Good morning Bob (you can call me Jon, we should be on a first name basis by now). You keep talking of this mysterious ethereal "advantage", and are never able to actually describe it. How does an MG 'prolong a flight in certain situations' or "complete task...without otherwise terminating the flight"? The soaring flight terminates the instant the motor is started. The motor should only be started with a landing site within sure glide range. The continue vs. start engine/start pattern decision making is identical, in many cases favoring the non glider due to the increased time and pilot workload involved in the motor. Yes, a MG can continue beyond the last safe landing site, as can a purist - insurance claims are riddled with both.

You have repeatedly made an assertion without a shred of evidence - evidence that should be easy to find for such "a huge advantage", and you assert it while admitting no experience or knowledge of the subject. If what you said were true, the podium at nationals would be crowded with MG pilots. How many MGs were represented on the podium (or even the top 5) in the last several 18 meter nationals? (hint: none).
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 4:41:24 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 1:09:58 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Bob, you keep saying "there is an advantage". What advantage, exactly? Are you suggesting that in this case, the MG pilot was too low to reach a safe landing site when he started his motor? If so give us the link to his IGC file (or date and name), so that we may see this. I doubt you will because I doubt you can. "A much appreciated comment..." - do your MG friends commonly lie about starting the motor? It is right there in the IGC file for anyone to see. I'd be more than happy with a low save rule for contests where starting your motor - or thermaling - too low for a safe landing meant a DSQ, the so called 'hard deck' rule. It would affect more purists than MG pilots, I'll wager.

Of course there are pilots who fly low into unlandable terrain. I knew two, they did the same thing while flying non MG gliders and eventually came to grief. The motor didn't change their attitude, at most it delayed the inevitable. Kawa's accident isn't really a surprise, his risk tolerance is self documented.

I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:10:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:58:06 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
I'm sorry, was that a revelation for you? That is what you do with a motorglider. The purist has exactly the same (or better) flight opportunity on a crummy day, except at the termination of the flight they may have to land and get an air or ground retrieve, an inconvenience. The motor in a glider is and always has been a convenience item. In fact, the purist has a *better* opportunity on a crummy day, because he can dump ballast and keep soaring in conditions that the motorglider cannot. On one flight I got home by this very fact, when I would otherwise have had to start the motor, effectively landed out - the motor had been removed for modification and the glider was 150 lbs lighter allowing the extra climb needed for final glide.

You continue to conflate 'convenience' with 'safety'. Look the terms up if you are confused by them.

If you tell me that some pilot started the motor low over unlandable terrain, then that pilot is a fool living on borrowed time, and would be regardless of the type of glider he was flying.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 4:54:59 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 3:55:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:05:26 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
"I'd rather have a motor and not need it than need a motor it and not have it."

However, I can't afford a motorglider and the associated insurance costs and maintenance expenses. But I don't approve of the "class warfare" tactics promoted by "Old Bob." Got a lot of MG friends, as well as "purists." This thread should die.
Mark, how can there be class warfare, we all can afford do do what we want. Old Bob
Finally found a honest motorglider comment on OLC. Yes, just yesterday I was resting from a visit from the doctor and reading the OLC results from Perry, S.C. One motorglider pilot stated that he was not doing well and the conditions were not good so he started his motor and went back home. The purist did not have that opportunity especially on a crummy day. Old Bob
Good morning Fitch, no, the comment was not a revelation, it was a much appreciated comment from a motorglider pilot. It further confirms that there is an advantage from the motorglider vs the purist, maybe you should not abrogate the fact that there is an advantage. Your friend, Old Bob

Good morning my friend Fitch, hopefully you got a good night sleep and had no nightmares of a purist recovering from a low save to make it home for dinner. Just yesterday I got a call from Puerto Rico, it was a motorglider friend who offered to let me fly his JS3 MJ. I very quickly told him NO, why, because he would take a picture of me in his motorglider and send it to Seminole Lakes Motorglider Club and all the MG pilots would fall over laughing.
Seriously, IMHO there is a big advantage to the MG, being able to stretch it out a bit further to gain an advantage is a big plus on the side of the motorglider, simply stated, it prolongs a flight in certain situations, increases the ability to complete task or objectives without otherwise terminating the flight, that in and of itself is a huge advantage. Motorgliders and sustainers need to be scored in a class by themselves. Your friend and purist, Old Bob


Thanks for the reply Jon, I must say that some of these MG guys have really thin skin and seem to be somewhat upset that someone carries a different opinion, I guess they still believe in a flat earth.
I have flown a motorglider, I cannot see myself ever doing it again, I just think that that platform has degraded the sport! I admit that it has advantages as compared to the purist sailplane and they give the glider pilot the advantage not only in getting home at the end of the day, but extending a flight that would most often be terminated. I do not have that luxury, I have to play the cards that I am dealt, I cannot pull an ace from my back pocket and stay in the game. Your friend, Old Bob
  #78  
Old April 24th 21, 12:48 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Andrzej Kobus
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Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 3:46:17 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 10:36:48 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Good morning Bob (you can call me Jon, we should be on a first name basis by now). You keep talking of this mysterious ethereal "advantage", and are never able to actually describe it. How does an MG 'prolong a flight in certain situations' or "complete task...without otherwise terminating the flight"? The soaring flight terminates the instant the motor is started. The motor should only be started with a landing site within sure glide range. The continue vs. start engine/start pattern decision making is identical, in many cases favoring the non glider due to the increased time and pilot workload involved in the motor. Yes, a MG can continue beyond the last safe landing site, as can a purist - insurance claims are riddled with both.

You have repeatedly made an assertion without a shred of evidence - evidence that should be easy to find for such "a huge advantage", and you assert it while admitting no experience or knowledge of the subject. If what you said were true, the podium at nationals would be crowded with MG pilots. How many MGs were represented on the podium (or even the top 5) in the last several 18 meter nationals? (hint: none).
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 4:41:24 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 1:09:58 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
Bob, you keep saying "there is an advantage". What advantage, exactly? Are you suggesting that in this case, the MG pilot was too low to reach a safe landing site when he started his motor? If so give us the link to his IGC file (or date and name), so that we may see this. I doubt you will because I doubt you can. "A much appreciated comment..." - do your MG friends commonly lie about starting the motor? It is right there in the IGC file for anyone to see. I'd be more than happy with a low save rule for contests where starting your motor - or thermaling - too low for a safe landing meant a DSQ, the so called 'hard deck' rule. It would affect more purists than MG pilots, I'll wager.

Of course there are pilots who fly low into unlandable terrain. I knew two, they did the same thing while flying non MG gliders and eventually came to grief. The motor didn't change their attitude, at most it delayed the inevitable. Kawa's accident isn't really a surprise, his risk tolerance is self documented.

I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:10:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 10:58:06 AM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
I'm sorry, was that a revelation for you? That is what you do with a motorglider. The purist has exactly the same (or better) flight opportunity on a crummy day, except at the termination of the flight they may have to land and get an air or ground retrieve, an inconvenience. The motor in a glider is and always has been a convenience item. In fact, the purist has a *better* opportunity on a crummy day, because he can dump ballast and keep soaring in conditions that the motorglider cannot. On one flight I got home by this very fact, when I would otherwise have had to start the motor, effectively landed out - the motor had been removed for modification and the glider was 150 lbs lighter allowing the extra climb needed for final glide.

You continue to conflate 'convenience' with 'safety'. Look the terms up if you are confused by them.

If you tell me that some pilot started the motor low over unlandable terrain, then that pilot is a fool living on borrowed time, and would be regardless of the type of glider he was flying.
On Thursday, April 22, 2021 at 4:54:59 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, April 20, 2021 at 3:55:08 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, April 19, 2021 at 10:05:26 AM UTC-4, Mark Mocho wrote:
"I'd rather have a motor and not need it than need a motor it and not have it."

However, I can't afford a motorglider and the associated insurance costs and maintenance expenses. But I don't approve of the "class warfare" tactics promoted by "Old Bob." Got a lot of MG friends, as well as "purists." This thread should die.
Mark, how can there be class warfare, we all can afford do do what we want. Old Bob
Finally found a honest motorglider comment on OLC. Yes, just yesterday I was resting from a visit from the doctor and reading the OLC results from Perry, S.C. One motorglider pilot stated that he was not doing well and the conditions were not good so he started his motor and went back home. The purist did not have that opportunity especially on a crummy day. Old Bob
Good morning Fitch, no, the comment was not a revelation, it was a much appreciated comment from a motorglider pilot. It further confirms that there is an advantage from the motorglider vs the purist, maybe you should not abrogate the fact that there is an advantage. Your friend, Old Bob
Good morning my friend Fitch, hopefully you got a good night sleep and had no nightmares of a purist recovering from a low save to make it home for dinner. Just yesterday I got a call from Puerto Rico, it was a motorglider friend who offered to let me fly his JS3 MJ. I very quickly told him NO, why, because he would take a picture of me in his motorglider and send it to Seminole Lakes Motorglider Club and all the MG pilots would fall over laughing.
Seriously, IMHO there is a big advantage to the MG, being able to stretch it out a bit further to gain an advantage is a big plus on the side of the motorglider, simply stated, it prolongs a flight in certain situations, increases the ability to complete task or objectives without otherwise terminating the flight, that in and of itself is a huge advantage. Motorgliders and sustainers need to be scored in a class by themselves. Your friend and purist, Old Bob

Thanks for the reply Jon, I must say that some of these MG guys have really thin skin and seem to be somewhat upset that someone carries a different opinion, I guess they still believe in a flat earth.
I have flown a motorglider, I cannot see myself ever doing it again, I just think that that platform has degraded the sport! I admit that it has advantages as compared to the purist sailplane and they give the glider pilot the advantage not only in getting home at the end of the day, but extending a flight that would most often be terminated. I do not have that luxury, I have to play the cards that I am dealt, I cannot pull an ace from my back pocket and stay in the game. Your friend, Old Bob


Bob, repeating the same thing over and over again does not make it true.
  #79  
Old April 24th 21, 01:39 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
waremark
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Posts: 377
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Friday, 23 April 2021 at 15:36:48 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
If what you said were true, the podium at nationals would be crowded with MG pilots. How many MGs were represented on the podium (or even the top 5) in the last several 18 meter nationals? (hint: none).


I'm amazed. In the 2019 UK 18m Nationals I believe that every one of the 37 gliders entered had a motor.

I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.


I'm amazed again and impressed. I'm sure you're a brilliant pilot and I'm not. I start my engine for a retrieve several times a season, generally raising the prop at 1,000 foot over a field. If I was over a paved runway, and not conflicting with other traffic, I would probably go lower with the intention of landing if I couldn't soar and taking off again. I believe I am quite prudent compared to other motorglider pilot friends.
  #80  
Old April 24th 21, 02:41 AM posted to rec.aviation.soaring
Glenn Betzoldt[_2_]
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Posts: 12
Default Purists are from Pluto, Motorgliderists are from Mars - #2

On Friday, April 23, 2021 at 8:39:12 PM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
On Friday, 23 April 2021 at 15:36:48 UTC+1, jfitch wrote:
If what you said were true, the podium at nationals would be crowded with MG pilots. How many MGs were represented on the podium (or even the top 5) in the last several 18 meter nationals? (hint: none).

I'm amazed. In the 2019 UK 18m Nationals I believe that every one of the 37 gliders entered had a motor.
I have started my motor I think 6 times in 20 years for a retrieve. Every time it was 1500 ft AGL over a paved runway marked on a sectional. The glider is too expensive to stuff into a field and too heavy to carry out of it.

I'm amazed again and impressed. I'm sure you're a brilliant pilot and I'm not. I start my engine for a retrieve several times a season, generally raising the prop at 1,000 foot over a field. If I was over a paved runway, and not conflicting with other traffic, I would probably go lower with the intention of landing if I couldn't soar and taking off again. I believe I am quite prudent compared to other motorglider pilot friends.

WHAT Jon said
 




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