Washington DC airspace closing for good?

W P Dixon wrote:
How About This,
You get more flies with honey than vinegar approach, mention that as
Class B airspace , every plane has to have approval from ATC before
entering the airspace. So if the entire point of the ADIZ is to know
which planes are there, then the Class B does that just because you must
have permission to enter Class B and you must have a transponder.

The problem with that is that the class B airspace does not extend to the ground
at the perimeter, nor does it extend above 10,000'. If you change the class B to
do this, you have almost the existing ADIZ, so why make that change?

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

Correct George,
But see my answer to the problem would be to make the entire area minus
Class A , into a super class"B". The normal rules of what Class B would be
re-defined for the ADIZ area, which is very very possible and very very
simple. We could call it Class B plus!!!
Gov is happy everybody has a transponder on and being tracked, only
enter by permission, and it would not be restricted airspace. Would it be a
pain..sure Class B can be..would it be a no fly zone...NOPE. Problem solved.
Sometimes the simplicity of a solution is the hardest to get people to
see,.....especially CONGRESS!
Just change the rules of DC's Class B...no need to reinvent the wheel.
With the stroke of a pen and changing the charts and POOF we have the DC
Bplus!!! Still may not be perfect but it frees pilots some, and still offers
the same security the politicians want(so it appears they have done
something!)

Patrick

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:AYyJe.895$Im1.392@trndny02...
W P Dixon wrote:
How About This,
You get more flies with honey than vinegar approach, mention that as
Class B airspace , every plane has to have approval from ATC before
entering the airspace. So if the entire point of the ADIZ is to know
which planes are there, then the Class B does that just because you must
have permission to enter Class B and you must have a transponder.

The problem with that is that the class B airspace does not extend to the
ground at the perimeter, nor does it extend above 10,000'. If you change
the class B to do this, you have almost the existing ADIZ, so why make
that change?

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.

"W P Dixon" wrote

Just change the rules of DC's Class B...no need to reinvent the wheel.
With the stroke of a pen and changing the charts and POOF we have the DC
Bplus!!!

I like it! Make it so!
--
Jim in NC

But see my answer to the problem would be to make the entire area minus Class A , into a super class"B". The normal rules of what Class B would be re-defined for the ADIZ area, which is very very possible and very very simple. We could call it Class B plus!!!

How does this materially differ from simply eliminating the FRZ and
keeping the ADIZ (other than that the airspace boundaries would now
coincide with class B)? IF you redefine the rules for B+ airspace, you
can redefine them in accordance with the ADIZ rules, and all we've done
is change the name.

It does get rid of the FRZ, but the justification for the ADIZ =is= the
FRZ. With no FRZ, there's no need for B+ either.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Hee Hee,
See Jose you are trying to re invent the wheel think simple. The ADIZ
would be no more, is that not your goal? Tracking for every plane in the new
ClassBplus, is that not the gov's goal? Sometimes you have to give alittle
to get alittle. I don't see all restrictions disappearing,..so maybe we can
give to a ClassB idea,..of course it like all else would require pilots
following the rules.
But as I see it not only is there going to be a permanent ADIZ but all
these pilots that can not follow the rules are going to make it into an
absolute NO FLY ZONE. Yeah yeah I know the ones that actually busted it on
there on is not really a large large number. But think about it, IF
something does happen in that area and the reason it happened was because
"powers that be" could not make a shoot down order in time because they were
not sure it was a putz from PA that was lost or threat.....then GA probably
would not be flying at all.
Compromise is always the best way to find a solution, if our side is
just as hard headed as the other side guess what will happen..more and more
restrictions. The other side is the gov and they will win...our option is to
compromise and say hey we understand but listen to this solution, then just
maybe the gov will say "hey we can live with that!" IMHO of course.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech


"Jose" wrote in message
.. .
But see my answer to the problem would be to make the entire area minus
Class A , into a super class"B". The normal rules of what Class B would
be re-defined for the ADIZ area, which is very very possible and very
very simple. We could call it Class B plus!!!

How does this materially differ from simply eliminating the FRZ and
keeping the ADIZ (other than that the airspace boundaries would now
coincide with class B)? IF you redefine the rules for B+ airspace, you
can redefine them in accordance with the ADIZ rules, and all we've done is
change the name.

It does get rid of the FRZ, but the justification for the ADIZ =is= the
FRZ. With no FRZ, there's no need for B+ either.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no
universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

The ADIZ would be no more, is that not your goal? Tracking for every plane in the new ClassBplus, is that not the gov's goal?

The FRZ would be no more. That is (part of) my goal. The ADIZ going
away is also my goal, but I'm not sure you've done more than just
renaming it. We already have all aircraft in the 30nm ring requring
transponders, this would add a discrete code and clearance requirement;
clearance that can be denied at whim.

I don't see how we could sell this as =sufficient=, and it certainly
isn't =necessary=, for any defense purposes. If we are arguing that the
current or proposed rules are not appropriate, it makes little sense to
propose an alternative that is also unjustified.

I agree that mentioning that class B aircraft are also tracked is worth
doing. But letting untracked aircraft under the shelf does not weaken
the security of DC in any appreciable way; that's the whole point of my
comment to the FAA.

Am I missing something in your proposal?

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Jose,
I think you most definitely are missing something, a simple fact that
something will exist in the DC area if we like it or not. So why not make it
something we could be alittle bit happier with. You and others may think
there is no threat, but I assure you as a military man who has watched very
carefully how these "critters" operate, it's a very real threat. A small
plane in itself may not carry enough to do alot of damage, but in that area
it would not take alot of damage to do what the bad guys want...to show they
can hit wherever they want when they want.
Our only option is a compromise, and there is no way that the gov is
gonna give up the transponder requirement. A Class B plus is the only idea I
can come up with that addresses both sides..not just one. And that is alot
of the problem , people only seeing one side. Does the whole thing suck? Yep
it sure does! But unless we can get the Feds to find and kick out approx.
11million illegals it is a threat. And then we have the threat of the legal
ones that are out to kill us as well. If we could keep the bad guys out of
this country, then we would not need the restrictions.
There will be something over DC, wouldn't it be better if we actually
had some say in it? You will not if you do not realize there will be
transponder tracking in that area.
If we want the Founding Fathers freedoms given back to us all, then all of
us need to stop voting for the same damn fools we continue to put in office
just because they "say" they are a Dem or a Repub. They ALL care about a
vote, not your freedom. We must bend , so they appear to have done something
(for their vote). We don't bend we will have less..until Americans get their
head out of their butts and vote the entire 2 parties out of Washington.
What you want requires changing the entire government, what I propose
gets along with the current one. See the difference? It's something we may
not like, but it is the way the chips are stacked at this point in time.
they have the advantage, in one room they say hey lets do this it is voted
on in minutes (when they want to!!! ) and it is done..no fly or whatever!
For the country to get rid of all the crooks will take alot of old timers
dying out that can not see the problems of their parties. Not to mention
those with the mindset of I am voting Democrat because my Daddy his Daddy
and his Daddy were all Democrats all have to die out. Then maybe in another
75-100 years the government will really change, as long as no more like them
come into play mind you.
So see who has the advantage? See why we have to bend? And you know what
will happen if we don't? All those little things that the public let their
rights go away alittle on, because it did not effect them....sooner or later
it becomes a right that does effect you. Then it's to late the downhill
slide has started. Just say Thank You Mr. Lincoln!!!!
A majority of Americans do feel aircraft as a real threat , and the
majority of votes wins that argument. They listen to the vote..so you must
bend or not be heard at all.

Patrick
student SPL
aircraft structural mech

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 13:19:18 -0400, "W P Dixon"
wrote in
::

... mention that as
Class B airspace , every plane has to have approval from ATC before entering
the airspace. So if the entire point of the ADIZ is to know which planes are
there,

If you had read the NPRM*, you'd know that is not the entire extent of
the information the FAA/DOD/DHS/TSA/... seek.

then the Class B does that just because you must have permission to
enter Class B and you must have a transponder.

But in Class B airspace ATC must admit aircraft in the order they
call, which limits ATC flexibility, and ATC must provide separation to
all aircraft, which may not be possible.

All it requires is ATC giving
a plane a transponder code and they know who you are.

No, they ATC will not know who you are as they would with a Flight
Plan.

If the airspace has to[o]
much traffic Class B can always deny entrance until traffic is at acceptable
levels. It' simple, it is factual, and it does not make the Congress
Critters think you are a radical ...

The comments on the NPRM are evaluated by the FAA not Congress.


* http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsite...4adiz-nprm.pdf

I think we are off a bit when we assume this has anything to do with
votes.
I think this has much more to do with personal fear then anything else.
Let me pose this question and then provide my answer. Given the same
circumstances and the politicians of 30 years ago, would we have put in
to
place such restrictions. I say no. 30 years ago, a large majority of
politicians (including a majority or Presidents), were used to allowing
themselves to be in harms way as the price of freedom. This generation
of
politicians is the generation of deferments and special privileges that
got the out of military service and harms way (obviously notable
exceptions
i.e. Powell, McCain, Kerry). And what does the ADIZ protect? Their
Skins.
Pure and simple.
This fear is never discussed though. Instead there is this implicit
need to
protect our capital over every other city in the country. Its ironic
that
there is no longer an ADIZ over Manhattan, where a majority of the Sept
11th
deaths occurred, but here in DC, we seem to need one (no disrespect
meant to
family's of those killed in the Pentagon).
We have, to a large extent, lost our backbone in this country. We have
no
qualms about sending our poor into a war over oil, but refuse to allow
our rich and well connected to be at the slightest bit of risk at the
behest
of personal freedom.
One last thing...I'll bet if John M is elected President, the ADIZ will
disappear into thin air.

-BC

On Sun, 7 Aug 2005 22:20:46 -0400, "W P Dixon"
wrote in
::

The normal rules of what Class B would be re-defined

Than the airspace wouldn't be in compliance with ICAO worldwide
standards.