A aviation & planes forum. AviationBanter

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below.

Go Back   Home » AviationBanter forum » rec.aviation newsgroups » Piloting
Site Map Home Register Authors List Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read Web Partners

Washington DC airspace closing for good?



 
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #131  
Old August 8th 05, 06:32 PM
W P Dixon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Hmm,
George do you not have a transponder? That would most definitely be a
problem.But other than the "it's not needed" any idea? I doubt if I'll have
a transponder in my airplane either, so I'd more than likely be in that boat
as well. But if I really need to go across the airspace I can get a
transponder. I'd be willing to get a transponder to just have a Class B
situation. but what's the old saying, Ya can't make everybody happy! This
entire situation is one of those deals Wouldn't saying you can fly in it
with a transponder make you happier than them finally saying we are shutting
it down completely? NO FLY?

Patrick

"George Patterson" wrote in message
news:M2MJe.576$Yf7.343@trndny06...
W P Dixon wrote:
Jose,
I think you most definitely are missing something, a simple fact that
something will exist in the DC area if we like it or not. So why not make
it something we could be alittle bit happier with.


But your proposal for a super-B doesn't produce anything I would be
happier with. I used to be able to cut a good deal of time off trips south
by cutting under the class-B floor or (rarely) going over the top. I can't
do that with the ADIZ and wouldn't be able to do that with your proposal.

George Patterson
Give a person a fish and you feed him for a day; teach a person to
use the Internet and he won't bother you for weeks.


  #132  
Old August 8th 05, 07:36 PM
John T
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

GAO study results relevant to this thread:

"HOMELAND SECURITY
Agency Resources Address
Violations of Restricted
Airspace, but Management
Improvements Are Needed"

http://www.gao.gov/htext/d05928t.html
http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05928t.pdf

--
John T
http://tknowlogy.com/TknoFlyer
http://www.pocketgear.com/products_s...veloperid=4415
Reduce spam. Use Sender Policy Framework: http://spf.pobox.com
____________________


  #133  
Old August 8th 05, 07:39 PM
Jose
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

You didn't ask...

Actually, by posting the draft, I was implicitly asking. I
appreciate the feedback, and will incorporate many of the changes as is.
However...

My Cherokee 235 had a useful load of 1,400 lbs, and could probably
become airborne carrying substantially more weight.


.... and this can make a fair sized bang. No argument. But what
triggered this whole thing was not a "fair sized" bang, but a "humongous
boom", next to which 1400 lbs of explosive is a firecracker. (anybody a
demolition expert that could quantify the destructive power of a
commercial jet vs a cherokee with 1400 lbs of bang in it?)

Although any sized bang is bad for the people in it, there needs to be a
threshold of bang required before we consider imposing strong
restrictions in an attempt to avoid it.

I might reword
[does not increase security by any appreciable amount,
although at the same time it imposes an inappropriate burden...]
as: ...
does not increase security by an amount
commensurate with the financial and bourdons...


My point is that if a bang can be delivered several ways, one needs to
close =all= those doors before security is appreciably increased.
Unless the roads are closed, the airplane provides little advantage.

I would rethink suggesting "a huge amount of airspace ...
completely sterile - no flights no aircraft ..." to an agency capable
of enacting that.


You think they haven't thought of it? My point is that this, which
would be necessary, would also be (obviously) too burdensome.

Second, our government may consider collateral damage associated with
any shoot-down acceptable, and certainly preferable to having the
aircraft impact their offices.


You are right. But (my point is that) the likelyhood that the
alternative to a rain of aircraft parts and flaming avgas is an airplane
in the White House lobby. The most likely alternative is a peaceful
sightseeing flight with four patriotic US citizens awestruck by the
beauty of our Capitol. Ok, a little rhetoric there, but it's an
important point. To this, collateral damage is =not= acceptable. I
suppose I need to state that more forcefully.

Thanks for your comments; I look forward to more. To wit:

1: The FAA is required to "consider" the points being raised. To me
this means "to rebut them before enacting the rule anyway". (Ok, the
cynic in me!). In any case, what would their likely rebuttals be, so I
can anticipate them in the letter itself?

2: Does it matter how many people sign such a letter? i.e. does it
make sense to make a petition out of it?

3: Would it make sense to get an organization like MoveOn.org to read
it and perhaps generate an action item?

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #134  
Old August 8th 05, 08:00 PM
Jose
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

If no "bad guys" are here, then I am sure we could all agree none of this other would be necessary at all.

"bad guys" != "non-citizens".

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #135  
Old August 8th 05, 08:02 PM
Jose
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I can come up with about 100 things to do in a C-150 that would shut this nation down.

How many can you think of that =require= a C-150?

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #136  
Old August 8th 05, 08:21 PM
W P Dixon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

I can think of lots and lots, both requiring and not requiring the use of
any aircraft...all would pretty much shut the capital down. Dangers are most
definitely by more than just the air. And for the most part most of the bad
guys are non-citizens..but sad to say we have our own little "moles" just
like the Brits had in their recent attacks. IMHO we have not moved as fast
as we need to to get rid of the vermin.
9/11 was a very sucessful air attack, if the attack had been like the
OKC bombing, I would guess they would stop Uhaul trucks and such at the DC
limits. Just the way they think. Look at the useless bag checks on NYC
subways now, it's reason is so you "feel" safer, but it isn't doing anything
.. But New Yorkers are lining up letting the cops rummage through there
belongings, for what otherwise would be an illegal search. Go Figure huh!
Shoot for the "if our borders were secure then DC would be
secure",..that'll ruffle their feathers! Red tapers hate common sense!

Patrick
"Jose" wrote in message
. ..
I can come up with about 100 things to do in a C-150 that would shut this
nation down.


How many can you think of that =require= a C-150?

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no
universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.


  #137  
Old August 8th 05, 10:38 PM
Jose
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

IMHO we have not moved as fast as we need to to get rid of the vermin.

.... and how would you do that? First you have to identify the vermin,
knowing that they look just like you and me. Some are citizens, and
some citizens "look foreign". So, you have to pry into the private
lives of many innocent people. Like you.

This would be unacceptable.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
  #138  
Old August 8th 05, 10:59 PM
W P Dixon
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Jose,
well I am not the FBI but I would just have to guess they already have
some great ideas of who the vermin is, and no they do not look like me I
have not seen a Scot blow up anything in the name of Islam yet If the
Islamic cleric is preaching violence I would say that's a dern good place to
start.And they already have the Not To Patriot Act to use to find whomever
whenever. And even with all of that we can't find 11 million illegals? HAHA
Sometimes you wonder if any of us has enough sense to get out of bed !
Searching Grandma is NOT going to find a terrorist, but the chances increase
if you search Abdul. But of course if we do not stop them at the border then
it will all be a waste of time anyway, cause they will keep right on coming!

Patrick

"Jose" wrote in message
.. .
IMHO we have not moved as fast as we need to to get rid of the vermin.


... and how would you do that? First you have to identify the vermin,
knowing that they look just like you and me. Some are citizens, and some
citizens "look foreign". So, you have to pry into the private lives of
many innocent people. Like you.

This would be unacceptable.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no
universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.


  #139  
Old August 8th 05, 11:56 PM
Happy Dog
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

"George Patterson"

During the 9/11 investigations, several security people stated that that
was the case. They wanted to reduce the number of radar targets in the
area to something manageable if they had to intercept. A fair amount of
the hearingd were broadcast on NPR last Spring.


That's it, really? "Several security people stated"? You OK with that?


Certainly. NPR didn't state "several security people stated", they played
recordings of the hearings and identified the speakers. In other words, I
heard some of the people responsible for getting the ADIZ set up state
that the purpose was to reduce the number of radar targets and make sure
that there were no unidentified primary radar echoes.


Other ways of accomplishing this have been suggested.

moo


  #140  
Old August 9th 05, 12:27 AM
Jose
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Searching Grandma is NOT going to find a terrorist

But if we let it be known that we won't search Grandma, then somehow
Grandma will be the bomb. Terrorists aren't dumb.

But of course if we do not stop them at the border...


Even if we do, the ideas will cross the border and infiltrate our society.

We're getting off topic here though.

Jose
--
Quantum Mechanics is like this: God =does= play dice with the universe,
except there's no God, and there's no dice. And maybe there's no universe.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
 




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NAS and associated computer system Newps Instrument Flight Rules 8 August 12th 04 05:12 AM
AOPA Sells-Out California Pilots in Military Airspace Grab? Larry Dighera Instrument Flight Rules 12 April 26th 04 06:12 PM
AOPA Sells-Out California Pilots in Military Airspace Grab? Larry Dighera Piloting 12 April 26th 04 06:12 PM
12 Dec 2003 - Today’s Military, Veteran, War and National Security News Otis Willie Naval Aviation 0 December 13th 03 12:01 AM
USAF = US Amphetamine Fools RT Military Aviation 104 September 25th 03 03:17 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 10:02 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 AviationBanter.
The comments are property of their posters.