USA 2010 Competition Rules Committee Minutes Posted

On Dec 15, 4:46*pm, Andy wrote:
I thought the "start anywhere" rule was going to revert back to the
original version by eliminating the "front half" of the cylinder
provision that was added for 2010. *What happened?

Also, under advanced handicap class rules that allow water will the
handicaps vary with the ballasted weight or just use the unballasted
weights for setting handicaps?

9B

Handicap would be based on published handicap with no weight
adjustment. No extra work for the scorer.
UH

On Dec 15, 6:55*pm, wrote:
On Dec 15, 4:46*pm, Andy wrote:

I thought the "start anywhere" rule was going to revert back to the
original version by eliminating the "front half" of the cylinder
provision that was added for 2010. *What happened?

Also, under advanced handicap class rules that allow water will the
handicaps vary with the ballasted weight or just use the unballasted
weights for setting handicaps?

9B

Handicap would be based on published handicap with no weight
adjustment. No extra work for the scorer.
UH

The 18 Meter Antares empty is 884 lbs. My ASG 29/18 Meter is 606.
Thats a fact and mine is most likely the lightest in the USA on its
emprty weight. Now, Dave and I were tied down by each other in
Waynesville, Ohio at the 2010 18 Meter Nationals. His 18 Meter Antares
has a wing area of 128.1 sq. feet. Mine is 113 sq. feet. Now, Dave
shared that without water his wing loading was over 9.2 lbs per sq.
ft. DRY.
OK, math time, 128.1 sq. feet times 9.2 gives a gross weight of 1178
lbs.
Now I can ballast to 1178 lbs ( heavest motorglider weight) which
gives me a wing loading of 10.429 lbs a sq. ft. (note...Dry I am 7.7
lbs sq ft/18 meter). A V2CX has 118 sq. ft. and they will be 9.98 lbs
sq ft. Dave Nadler could not be happy on this note, the V2cx guys and
girls might not be, BUT I am very happy and just wanted to express my
thanks for this wondeful Christmas present.

On Dec 15, 10:44*pm, Tom Kelley wrote:
On Dec 15, 6:55*pm, wrote:

On Dec 15, 4:46*pm, Andy wrote:

I thought the "start anywhere" rule was going to revert back to the
original version by eliminating the "front half" of the cylinder
provision that was added for 2010. *What happened?

Also, under advanced handicap class rules that allow water will the
handicaps vary with the ballasted weight or just use the unballasted
weights for setting handicaps?

9B

Handicap would be based on published handicap with no weight
adjustment. No extra work for the scorer.
UH

The 18 Meter Antares empty is 884 lbs. My ASG 29/18 Meter is 606.
Thats a fact and mine is most likely the lightest in the USA on its
emprty weight. Now, Dave and I were tied down by each other in
Waynesville, Ohio at the 2010 18 Meter Nationals. His 18 Meter Antares
has a wing area of 128.1 sq. feet. Mine is 113 sq. feet. Now, Dave
shared that without water his wing loading was over 9.2 lbs per sq.
ft. DRY.
*OK, math time, 128.1 sq. feet times 9.2 gives a gross weight of 1178
lbs.
Now I can ballast to 1178 lbs ( heavest motorglider weight) which
gives me a wing loading of 10.429 lbs a sq. ft. (note...Dry I am 7.7
lbs sq ft/18 meter). *A V2CX has 118 sq. ft. and they will be 9.98 lbs
sq ft. *Dave Nadler could not be happy on this note, the V2cx guys and
girls might not be, *BUT I am very happy and just wanted to express my
thanks for this wondeful Christmas present.

Going to be great fun watching you 18m guys sort this one out.
Popcorn, anyone?

-Evan Ludeman / T8

On Dec 15, 7:44*pm, Tom Kelley wrote:
On Dec 15, 6:55*pm, wrote:

On Dec 15, 4:46*pm, Andy wrote:

I thought the "start anywhere" rule was going to revert back to the
original version by eliminating the "front half" of the cylinder
provision that was added for 2010. *What happened?

Also, under advanced handicap class rules that allow water will the
handicaps vary with the ballasted weight or just use the unballasted
weights for setting handicaps?

9B

Handicap would be based on published handicap with no weight
adjustment. No extra work for the scorer.
UH

The 18 Meter Antares empty is 884 lbs. My ASG 29/18 Meter is 606.
Thats a fact and mine is most likely the lightest in the USA on its
emprty weight. Now, Dave and I were tied down by each other in
Waynesville, Ohio at the 2010 18 Meter Nationals. His 18 Meter Antares
has a wing area of 128.1 sq. feet. Mine is 113 sq. feet. Now, Dave
shared that without water his wing loading was over 9.2 lbs per sq.
ft. DRY.
*OK, math time, 128.1 sq. feet times 9.2 gives a gross weight of 1178
lbs.
Now I can ballast to 1178 lbs ( heavest motorglider weight) which
gives me a wing loading of 10.429 lbs a sq. ft. (note...Dry I am 7.7
lbs sq ft/18 meter). *A V2CX has 118 sq. ft. and they will be 9.98 lbs
sq ft. *Dave Nadler could not be happy on this note, the V2cx guys and
girls might not be, *BUT I am very happy and just wanted to express my
thanks for this wondeful Christmas present.

Hmmmm...not sure the intent of the rule is to have a bunch of ships
ballasted to near MGTOW.

9B

On Dec 15, 11:16*pm, T8 wrote:
On Dec 15, 10:44*pm, Tom Kelley wrote:





On Dec 15, 6:55*pm, wrote:

On Dec 15, 4:46*pm, Andy wrote:

I thought the "start anywhere" rule was going to revert back to the
original version by eliminating the "front half" of the cylinder
provision that was added for 2010. *What happened?

Also, under advanced handicap class rules that allow water will the
handicaps vary with the ballasted weight or just use the unballasted
weights for setting handicaps?

9B

Handicap would be based on published handicap with no weight
adjustment. No extra work for the scorer.
UH

The 18 Meter Antares empty is 884 lbs. My ASG 29/18 Meter is 606.
Thats a fact and mine is most likely the lightest in the USA on its
emprty weight. Now, Dave and I were tied down by each other in
Waynesville, Ohio at the 2010 18 Meter Nationals. His 18 Meter Antares
has a wing area of 128.1 sq. feet. Mine is 113 sq. feet. Now, Dave
shared that without water his wing loading was over 9.2 lbs per sq.
ft. DRY.
*OK, math time, 128.1 sq. feet times 9.2 gives a gross weight of 1178
lbs.
Now I can ballast to 1178 lbs ( heavest motorglider weight) which
gives me a wing loading of 10.429 lbs a sq. ft. (note...Dry I am 7.7
lbs sq ft/18 meter). *A V2CX has 118 sq. ft. and they will be 9.98 lbs
sq ft. *Dave Nadler could not be happy on this note, the V2cx guys and
girls might not be, *BUT I am very happy and just wanted to express my
thanks for this wondeful Christmas present.

Going to be great fun watching you 18m guys sort this one out.
Popcorn, anyone?

-Evan Ludeman / T8- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Pop alot of corn Evan. Here's a good story.
Last year at the 2010 Seniors, John Good, our CD, showed up with new
scales. We were weighed on different days, outside and with different
conditions, needless to say. Our handicaps were adjusted down to the
10 thousands. Hey, you do want fair to be fair, right to be right, and
no advantage to any of us old folks.
Remember, next time you read the rules, find the rules pertaining to
the Seniors.
Now, put some more butter on that corn, cause heres your Christmas
story. On the second day, I put the weight of 16 pounds in my tail,
plus I put water in my tail tank to move my CG way back where me
likes it, as I am now told I am going to be weighted and no changes
after the weighing. This changed my weight from the declared 840 pds.
to 866 pds. My ASG 29 was in 15 Meter config. Ok, now they adjusted my
handicap on the first day to this new weight, which I tried to
explain, but to no avail.
Ok, whatever, but thats NOT all the Christmas story. Please, read on.
DB flew his ASG 29 in the 15 Meter config. They weighed him in the
wind, he and his glider weighed 861 pds. Ok, whats 5 pds between ships
you say. Nothing at all. BUT wait, DB has a body weight of 175 pds
and yep, my body weight is 242 pds. and yet our total weights were
within 5 pounds. Oh, my you say, what the........za zoom ..........His
handicap was adjusted to what mine was. Is something wrong here? Are
we trying to be to perfect in a non perfect world?

Andy, 9B, you can't even get to 1178 lbs, as you, my friend, have an
ASW 27 which has a max. weight of 1102 lbs.............. Check the
wing on the ASH 31, its 128 sq. ft. and look at the ASH 26E, its 125
sq. ft. Look at their weights as they are motorgliders.

As I do think this new rule will never be used, I brought this up to
show the lengths we go to, at some contests, to adjust wing loadings
and yet the outcome isn't always justified or wanted. Just old school
thinking I guess, never meant any harm or foul yet are we trying to be
to "perfect".

Hank and the guys really work hard to try and make it fair and equal
to all. With the years they have put in, its better now than it has
ever been.

Many thanks to them all.

On Dec 16, 2:58*am, Tom Kelley wrote:
On Dec 15, 11:16*pm, T8 wrote:





On Dec 15, 10:44*pm, Tom Kelley wrote:

On Dec 15, 6:55*pm, wrote:

On Dec 15, 4:46*pm, Andy wrote:

I thought the "start anywhere" rule was going to revert back to the
original version by eliminating the "front half" of the cylinder
provision that was added for 2010. *What happened?

Also, under advanced handicap class rules that allow water will the
handicaps vary with the ballasted weight or just use the unballasted
weights for setting handicaps?

9B

Handicap would be based on published handicap with no weight
adjustment. No extra work for the scorer.
UH

The 18 Meter Antares empty is 884 lbs. My ASG 29/18 Meter is 606.
Thats a fact and mine is most likely the lightest in the USA on its
emprty weight. Now, Dave and I were tied down by each other in
Waynesville, Ohio at the 2010 18 Meter Nationals. His 18 Meter Antares
has a wing area of 128.1 sq. feet. Mine is 113 sq. feet. Now, Dave
shared that without water his wing loading was over 9.2 lbs per sq.
ft. DRY.
*OK, math time, 128.1 sq. feet times 9.2 gives a gross weight of 1178
lbs.
Now I can ballast to 1178 lbs ( heavest motorglider weight) which
gives me a wing loading of 10.429 lbs a sq. ft. (note...Dry I am 7.7
lbs sq ft/18 meter). *A V2CX has 118 sq. ft. and they will be 9.98 lbs
sq ft. *Dave Nadler could not be happy on this note, the V2cx guys and
girls might not be, *BUT I am very happy and just wanted to express my
thanks for this wondeful Christmas present.

Going to be great fun watching you 18m guys sort this one out.
Popcorn, anyone?

-Evan Ludeman / T8- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Pop alot of corn Evan. Here's a good story.
Last year at the 2010 Seniors, John Good, our CD, showed up with new
scales. We were weighed on different days, outside and with different
conditions, needless to say. Our handicaps were adjusted down to the
10 thousands. Hey, you do want fair to be fair, right to be right, and
no advantage to any of us old folks.
Remember, next time you read the rules, find the rules pertaining to
the Seniors.
Now, put some more butter on that corn, cause *heres your Christmas
story. On the second day, I *put the weight of 16 pounds in my tail,
plus I put water in my tail tank *to move my CG way back where me
likes it, as I am now told I am going to be weighted and no changes
after the weighing. *This changed my weight from the declared 840 pds.
to 866 pds. My ASG 29 was in 15 Meter config. Ok, now they adjusted my
handicap on the first day to this new weight, which I tried to
explain, but to no avail.
Ok, whatever, but thats NOT all the Christmas story. Please, read on.
DB flew his ASG 29 in the 15 Meter config. They weighed him in the
wind, he and his glider weighed 861 pds. Ok, whats 5 pds between ships
you say. Nothing at all. BUT wait, *DB has a body weight of 175 pds
and yep, my body weight is 242 pds. and yet our total weights were
within 5 pounds. Oh, my you say, what the........za zoom ..........His
handicap was adjusted to what mine was. Is something wrong here? Are
we trying to be to perfect in a non perfect world?

Andy, *9B, you can't even get to 1178 lbs, as you, my friend, have an
ASW 27 which has a max. weight of 1102 lbs.............. Check the
wing on the ASH 31, its 128 sq. ft. and look at the ASH 26E, its 125
sq. ft. Look at their weights as they are motorgliders.

As I do think this new rule will never be used, I brought this up to
show the lengths we go to, at some contests, to adjust wing loadings
and yet the outcome isn't always justified or wanted. Just old school
thinking I guess, never meant any harm or foul yet are we trying to be
to "perfect".

Hank and the guys really work hard to try and make it fair and equal
to all. With the years they have put in, its better now than it has
ever been.

Many thanks to them all.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just to make as clear as mud. Let's not mix up 2 different changes we
are looking at.
First is what we hope is a fairness adjustment to use limited ballast
instead of no ballast on days that currently would be declared "dry"
days due to safety concerns. Practical example would be to ballast
ASG-29s to same weight as Ventus 2CT so motorgliders with 60 or so lb
of fixed ballast don't have an "unfair" advantage. Yep- the weight set
likely would not be as high as an Antares, so not perfect, but better.
Wing areas are close enough so loadings are not all that different.
This is for a single class, not mixed class, and probably
realistically Nationals. Use of one weight makes it easier to do on
short notice.
Second is the handicapped mixed class with possibly Dtd, 15m, 18m all
in a class with handicaps from Sports list. This could be a dry class,
or it could be ballasted with no change in handicap for ballast. There
is no intent to try to go to common weight in this option.
And yes , weighing has it's problems too. I suspect most contest
organizers will either go dry or wet with no restriction, but we are
providing the option. This is why I suspect the added hassle of
limited ballast will only be used in nationals.
Also note the option to "leever B" and do just as we do now is there.
Not everything we try stays long term. That is why the mixed classes
is an experiment before it becomes permanent in the rules.
Thanks for sharing ideas guys.
UH RC Chair

On Dec 16, 7:42Â*am, wrote:
On Dec 16, 2:58Â*am, Tom Kelley wrote:



On Dec 15, 11:16Â*pm, T8 wrote:

On Dec 15, 10:44Â*pm, Tom Kelley wrote:

On Dec 15, 6:55Â*pm, wrote:

On Dec 15, 4:46Â*pm, Andy wrote:

I thought the "start anywhere" rule was going to revert back to the
original version by eliminating the "front half" of the cylinder
provision that was added for 2010. Â*What happened?

Also, under advanced handicap class rules that allow water will the
handicaps vary with the ballasted weight or just use the unballasted
weights for setting handicaps?

9B

Handicap would be based on published handicap with no weight
adjustment. No extra work for the scorer.
UH

The 18 Meter Antares empty is 884 lbs. My ASG 29/18 Meter is 606.
Thats a fact and mine is most likely the lightest in the USA on its
emprty weight. Now, Dave and I were tied down by each other in
Waynesville, Ohio at the 2010 18 Meter Nationals. His 18 Meter Antares
has a wing area of 128.1 sq. feet. Mine is 113 sq. feet. Now, Dave
shared that without water his wing loading was over 9.2 lbs per sq.
ft. DRY.
Â*OK, math time, 128.1 sq. feet times 9.2 gives a gross weight of 1178
lbs.
Now I can ballast to 1178 lbs ( heavest motorglider weight) which
gives me a wing loading of 10.429 lbs a sq. ft. (note...Dry I am 7.7
lbs sq ft/18 meter). Â*A V2CX has 118 sq. ft. and they will be 9.98 lbs
sq ft. Â*Dave Nadler could not be happy on this note, the V2cx guys and
girls might not be, Â*BUT I am very happy and just wanted to express my
thanks for this wondeful Christmas present.

Going to be great fun watching you 18m guys sort this one out.
Popcorn, anyone?

-Evan Ludeman / T8- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Pop alot of corn Evan. Here's a good story.
Last year at the 2010 Seniors, John Good, our CD, showed up with new
scales. We were weighed on different days, outside and with different
conditions, needless to say. Our handicaps were adjusted down to the
10 thousands. Hey, you do want fair to be fair, right to be right, and
no advantage to any of us old folks.
Remember, next time you read the rules, find the rules pertaining to
the Seniors.
Now, put some more butter on that corn, cause Â*heres your Christmas
story. On the second day, I Â*put the weight of 16 pounds in my tail,
plus I put water in my tail tank Â*to move my CG way back where me
likes it, as I am now told I am going to be weighted and no changes
after the weighing. Â*This changed my weight from the declared 840 pds.
to 866 pds. My ASG 29 was in 15 Meter config. Ok, now they adjusted my
handicap on the first day to this new weight, which I tried to
explain, but to no avail.
Ok, whatever, but thats NOT all the Christmas story. Please, read on.
DB flew his ASG 29 in the 15 Meter config. They weighed him in the
wind, he and his glider weighed 861 pds. Ok, whats 5 pds between ships
you say. Nothing at all. BUT wait, Â*DB has a body weight of 175 pds
and yep, my body weight is 242 pds. and yet our total weights were
within 5 pounds. Oh, my you say, what the........za zoom ..........His
handicap was adjusted to what mine was. Is something wrong here? Are
we trying to be to perfect in a non perfect world?

Andy, Â*9B, you can't even get to 1178 lbs, as you, my friend, have an
ASW 27 which has a max. weight of 1102 lbs.............. Check the
wing on the ASH 31, its 128 sq. ft. and look at the ASH 26E, its 125
sq. ft. Look at their weights as they are motorgliders.

As I do think this new rule will never be used, I brought this up to
show the lengths we go to, at some contests, to adjust wing loadings
and yet the outcome isn't always justified or wanted. Just old school
thinking I guess, never meant any harm or foul yet are we trying to be
to "perfect".

Hank and the guys really work hard to try and make it fair and equal
to all. With the years they have put in, its better now than it has
ever been.

Many thanks to them all.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just to make as clear as mud. Let's not mix up 2 different changes we
are looking at.
First is what we hope is a fairness adjustment to use limited ballast
instead of no ballast on days that currently would be declared "dry"
days due to safety concerns. Practical example would be to ballast
ASG-29s to same weight as Ventus 2CT so motorgliders with 60 or so lb
of fixed ballast don't have an "unfair" advantage. Yep- the weight set
likely would not be as high as an Antares, so not perfect, but better.
Wing areas are close enough so loadings are not all that different.
This is for a single class, not mixed class, and probably
realistically Nationals. Use of one weight makes it easier to do on
short notice.
Second is the handicapped mixed class with possibly Dtd, 15m, 18m all
in a class with handicaps from Sports list. This could be a dry class,
or it could be ballasted with no change in handicap for ballast. There
is no intent to try to go to common weight in this option.
And yes , weighing has it's problems too. I suspect most contest
organizers will either go dry or wet with no restriction, but we are
providing the option. This is why I suspect the added hassle of
limited ballast will only be used in nationals.
Also note the option to "leever B" and do just as we do now is there.
Not everything we try stays long term. That is why the mixed classes
is an experiment before it becomes permanent in the rules.
Thanks for sharing ideas guys.
UH RC Chair

Hank,

You missed out the case that is the specific one of interest to me. It
is covered in rule 5.7.2 for 2010. The Combine everything class seems
to be new and different from 2010 rules. So my concern as a Std class
pilot is rule 5.7.2.1 in combination with the new limited ballast rule
being applied on some, or all, contest days. If this case cannot
exist under 2011 rules then I'll worry about something else.

5.7.2.1 â€* Combined 15-Meter/Standard Class: All sailplanes must meet
the requirements for the 15-Meter Class (Rule 6.12.4). A sailplane
that also meets the requirements for Standard Class (Rule 6.12.5) can
compete and receive a daily scored distance bonus (Rule 11.2.3.6).

11.2.3.6 â€* For a sailplane competing in a Combined 15-Meter/Standard
Class (Rule 5.7.2.1) that meets the requirements for
Standard Class, scored distance is multiplied by 1.02.

BTW the "mix anything" class with SSA handicaps and allowed ballast
with no handicap adjustment is exactly what Arizona Soaring
Association uses for our contest series.

Andy

On Dec 16, 10:16Â*am, Andy wrote:
On Dec 16, 7:42Â*am, wrote:





On Dec 16, 2:58Â*am, Tom Kelley wrote:

On Dec 15, 11:16Â*pm, T8 wrote:

On Dec 15, 10:44Â*pm, Tom Kelley wrote:

On Dec 15, 6:55Â*pm, wrote:

On Dec 15, 4:46Â*pm, Andy wrote:

I thought the "start anywhere" rule was going to revert back to the
original version by eliminating the "front half" of the cylinder
provision that was added for 2010. Â*What happened?

Also, under advanced handicap class rules that allow water will the
handicaps vary with the ballasted weight or just use the unballasted
weights for setting handicaps?

9B

Handicap would be based on published handicap with no weight
adjustment. No extra work for the scorer.
UH

The 18 Meter Antares empty is 884 lbs. My ASG 29/18 Meter is 606.
Thats a fact and mine is most likely the lightest in the USA on its
emprty weight. Now, Dave and I were tied down by each other in
Waynesville, Ohio at the 2010 18 Meter Nationals. His 18 Meter Antares
has a wing area of 128.1 sq. feet. Mine is 113 sq. feet. Now, Dave
shared that without water his wing loading was over 9.2 lbs per sq.
ft. DRY.
Â*OK, math time, 128.1 sq. feet times 9.2 gives a gross weight of 1178
lbs.
Now I can ballast to 1178 lbs ( heavest motorglider weight) which
gives me a wing loading of 10.429 lbs a sq. ft. (note...Dry I am 7.7
lbs sq ft/18 meter). Â*A V2CX has 118 sq. ft. and they will be 9.98 lbs
sq ft. Â*Dave Nadler could not be happy on this note, the V2cx guys and
girls might not be, Â*BUT I am very happy and just wanted to express my
thanks for this wondeful Christmas present.

Going to be great fun watching you 18m guys sort this one out.
Popcorn, anyone?

-Evan Ludeman / T8- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Pop alot of corn Evan. Here's a good story.
Last year at the 2010 Seniors, John Good, our CD, showed up with new
scales. We were weighed on different days, outside and with different
conditions, needless to say. Our handicaps were adjusted down to the
10 thousands. Hey, you do want fair to be fair, right to be right, and
no advantage to any of us old folks.
Remember, next time you read the rules, find the rules pertaining to
the Seniors.
Now, put some more butter on that corn, cause Â*heres your Christmas
story. On the second day, I Â*put the weight of 16 pounds in my tail,
plus I put water in my tail tank Â*to move my CG way back where me
likes it, as I am now told I am going to be weighted and no changes
after the weighing. Â*This changed my weight from the declared 840 pds.
to 866 pds. My ASG 29 was in 15 Meter config. Ok, now they adjusted my
handicap on the first day to this new weight, which I tried to
explain, but to no avail.
Ok, whatever, but thats NOT all the Christmas story. Please, read on.
DB flew his ASG 29 in the 15 Meter config. They weighed him in the
wind, he and his glider weighed 861 pds. Ok, whats 5 pds between ships
you say. Nothing at all. BUT wait, Â*DB has a body weight of 175 pds
and yep, my body weight is 242 pds. and yet our total weights were
within 5 pounds. Oh, my you say, what the........za zoom ..........His
handicap was adjusted to what mine was. Is something wrong here? Are
we trying to be to perfect in a non perfect world?

Andy, Â*9B, you can't even get to 1178 lbs, as you, my friend, have an
ASW 27 which has a max. weight of 1102 lbs.............. Check the
wing on the ASH 31, its 128 sq. ft. and look at the ASH 26E, its 125
sq. ft. Look at their weights as they are motorgliders.

As I do think this new rule will never be used, I brought this up to
show the lengths we go to, at some contests, to adjust wing loadings
and yet the outcome isn't always justified or wanted. Just old school
thinking I guess, never meant any harm or foul yet are we trying to be
to "perfect".

Hank and the guys really work hard to try and make it fair and equal
to all. With the years they have put in, its better now than it has
ever been.

Many thanks to them all.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just to make as clear as mud. Let's not mix up 2 different changes we
are looking at.
First is what we hope is a fairness adjustment to use limited ballast
instead of no ballast on days that currently would be declared "dry"
days due to safety concerns. Practical example would be to ballast
ASG-29s to same weight as Ventus 2CT so motorgliders with 60 or so lb
of fixed ballast don't have an "unfair" advantage. Yep- the weight set
likely would not be as high as an Antares, so not perfect, but better.
Wing areas are close enough so loadings are not all that different.
This is for a single class, not mixed class, and probably
realistically Nationals. Use of one weight makes it easier to do on
short notice.
Second is the handicapped mixed class with possibly Dtd, 15m, 18m all
in a class with handicaps from Sports list. This could be a dry class,
or it could be ballasted with no change in handicap for ballast. There
is no intent to try to go to common weight in this option.
And yes , weighing has it's problems too. I suspect most contest
organizers will either go dry or wet with no restriction, but we are
providing the option. This is why I suspect the added hassle of
limited ballast will only be used in nationals.
Also note the option to "leever B" and do just as we do now is there.
Not everything we try stays long term. That is why the mixed classes
is an experiment before it becomes permanent in the rules.
Thanks for sharing ideas guys.
UH RC Chair

Hank,

You missed out the case that is the specific one of interest to me. It
is covered in rule 5.7.2 for 2010. Â*The Combine everything class seems
to be new and different from 2010 rules. Â*So my concern as a Std class
pilot is rule 5.7.2.1 in combination with the new limited ballast rule
being applied on some, or all, contest days. Â*If this case cannot
exist under 2011 rules then I'll worry about something else.

5.7.2.1 â€* Combined 15-Meter/Standard Class: All sailplanes must meet
the requirements for the 15-Meter Class (Rule 6.12.4). A sailplane
that also meets the requirements for Standard Class (Rule 6.12.5) can
compete and receive a daily scored distance bonus (Rule 11.2.3.6).

11.2.3.6 â€* For a sailplane competing in a Combined 15-Meter/Standard
Class (Rule 5.7.2.1) that meets the requirements for
Standard Class, scored distance is multiplied by 1.02.

BTW the "mix anything" class with SSA handicaps and allowed ballast
with no handicap adjustment is exactly what Arizona Soaring
Association uses for our contest series.

Andy- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I tried in earlier post to clarify that there are 2 different cases
addressing different issues. We are not anticipating the combination
of mixed classes AND limited ballast.
The limited ballast is mostly related to fairness in nationals where
the hassle could be seen as justified.
The mixed classes is to get one "reasonable" sized class instead of 2
or 3 very small classes in regional.
Hope this makes it clearer.
UH

Like Hank says...

The CD has the option to declare a conventional "no water" day or a
"limited ballast" day, in which everyone flies at the same gross
weight. Which one he/she chooses will depend on a lot of things; the
reason for limiting water, and the impact on contest fairness.

The "limited ballast" idea gives you a bit more fairness in a single-
class contest like 18m nationals, where some gliders have motors, it's
a strong day, and people are really competing hard.

For reasons mentioned, "limited ballast" could well be less fair in a
mixed class regional if the class has widely different gliders in it.
So calling a "no water" day could be a better option.

These are tools. Use them wisely.

I don't think anyone is going to win an 18m national in a 15m glider
based on higher wingloading on "limited ballast" days. II will happily
trade my 27 for the 29, V2C, JS1 or Antares of anyone going to Hobbs
nationals who is worried about this.

John Cochrane

On Dec 15, 11:58*pm, Tom Kelley wrote:

Andy, *9B, you can't even get to 1178 lbs, as you, my friend, have an
ASW 27 which has a max. weight of 1102 lbs.............. Check the
wing on the ASH 31, its 128 sq. ft. and look at the ASH 26E, its 125
sq. ft. Look at their weights as they are motorgliders.

Hey Tom,

I was quoting your math for an ASG-29-18m rather than my -27B. If the
intent of the rule is to allow for soft fields or short, high/hot
runways it seems like ballasting to the heaviest motorglider TOW might
not get used much if there are heavy motorgliders on the grid since it
will put the non-motorgliders at pretty high wing loadings, which is
not what you want for towing under those takeoff conditions. I guess
it's a middle ground, but in some cases may not be much of one - at
least where it comes to the non-motorgliders.

9B