Cross Country the main focus of soaring?

I agree, a lot of badges are easier to acheive these days and it's a little
amusing to hear student pilots worrying about whether they can make 50km in
a Discus. I did my 500 as an out and return, just a little more challenging.
I going to try doing my ( UK ) 750 km as an FAI triangle. Get a map and try
to fit a damned 750 FAI triangle onto the UK bit of it !

But does it matter if its easier these days? I don't think there is any less
personal sense of acheivement. Did anyone who has recently soloed feel any
less elated the day they put their first solo in their logbook marking K-21,
Grob or any of the other plastic ship than the older generation did when
they marked KA7, Bergfalke or 2-33? I think not. Apart from providing a
rough guideline as to the ability of a soaring pilot the badges are just
personal landmarks. Claiming badges is a personal thing.

My 500km took about 8 years to get, a couple of years of little soaring, bad
weather, a new family and countless failed attempts. When I wrote it up in
my logbook it marked a personal acheivement. When a club I'm visiting ask me
about my 'qualifications' I can say I've got 3 diamonds but that doesn't
tell the whole story does it?

Ian

"Nyal Williams" wrote in message
...
At 11:00 08 October 2004, Clint wrote:
'tango4' wrote in message news:...
I did my 5 hours within gliding distance of the field.
Certainly no more
than 10 to 15 km from it. Boring? Hell no, I contacted
wave and made my gold
height in the same flight and I had less than 20 hours
solo at the time.


I did my 300km Diamond Goal flight last weekend. At
no point was I out
of gliding range of the airport. 134km final glide
from 15 500ft! Does
this count as a X/C flight?

Clinton
LAK 12


Congratulations!

Your question about X/C flight indicates that you did
not feel the same level of accomplishment as those
who did it in a 1950s glider.

This is not a putdown; I've not yet done a 300K flight
and I have a Discus. My longest flight was in a K-8
- 175mi. and that was a more substantial accomplishment
than a 186. mi. will be in my present glider.

Mark James Boyd wrote:

The Bronze badge precision landings and written test and
two flights of over two hours are a better prep for X-C than
a sole 5 hour duration flight, in my opinion.

Nowhere I said we'd require *only* 5 hours duration!

If you're interested: We require the 5 hours before the first cross
country. A cross country with an istructor has already been a
requirement for the license. Then, the first cross country has to be
prepared, and the preparation presented to an instructor. Preparation
means preparing the map (drawing circles, indicating outlanding fields),
estimating a schedule, knowing about the actual weather etc. etc.
Organizing a retreive crew is also compulsory. During the flight, you
take a logger with you. After the flight, there will be a debriefing
with the instructor which includes an analysis of the logger track. This
first cross country often is 50km silver distance, but need not be. Of
course, it is flown with our primary solo trainer (happens to be a Junior).

After this, you're allowed to take the Junior where ever you want.

The next step on the ladder is silver badge. As soon as you have gained
the silver badge (which is not trivial, as our airfield lies underneath
a TMA, so you need to go cross country to climb), you are allowed to
take the LS4s cross country.

And the ladder goes on: For the better single seaters, a 300 km flight
is asked for. Double seaters have their own requirements.

Stefan

Stefan wrote:
...
After this, you're allowed to take the Junior where ever you want.

The next step on the ladder is silver badge. As soon as you have gained
the silver badge (which is not trivial, as our airfield lies underneath
a TMA, so you need to go cross country to climb), you are allowed to
take the LS4s cross country.

And the ladder goes on: For the better single seaters, a 300 km flight
is asked for. Double seaters have their own requirements.


While this kind of rules is very common in numerous clibs, including mine,
I think there is a serious drawback. I am not against a hierarchy among club
ships, according to which you are allowed to fly a given ship after gaining
some experience and hours on the previous on the hierachy. The drawback is
in setting rigid rules, like the need for a silver badge or a 300 km distance.
The consequence is that we see ships in the top of the hierarchy remaining
in the hangars, while pilots remain on the ground because they don't already
meet the creteria for the better ships while others are already flown by
other pilots, although their experience and skills would allow them to fly
these better ships without risk or problem.

"Robert Ehrlich" wrote in message
...
Stefan wrote:
...
While this kind of rules is very common in numerous clibs, including mine,
I think there is a serious drawback. I am not against a hierarchy among
club
ships, according to which you are allowed to fly a given ship after
gaining
some experience and hours on the previous on the hierachy. The drawback is
in setting rigid rules, like the need for a silver badge or a 300 km
distance.
The consequence is that we see ships in the top of the hierarchy remaining
in the hangars, while pilots remain on the ground because they don't
already
meet the creteria for the better ships while others are already flown by
other pilots, although their experience and skills would allow them to fly
these better ships without risk or problem.

As opposed as having those "low-level" gliders either in the hangar or just
close to the airport. Which is better? I basically support at least the idea
of ladders , if not extreemly rigid rules. The worst scenario is that the
high-level gliders fly around the airfield and the low-levels in the hangar
and the cross-country pilots have a hay-straw in the mouth as they wait for
their 1:30 hour slot...

Now, real men fly cross-country with K-8b if nothing else is available, but
now the mindset seems to be that only LS-4+ gliders are good enough for
anything. Of course another question is, if the cross-country is for
everyone (and as I see, it isn't) and if those also should be able to fly
the higher level ships. Basically it's about the same to fly a local flight
in Grob 102 as LS-4 or even LS-8 - meaning it is normally not more
difficult. But flying with higher level gliders is sexier and so these good
cross-country gliders are used for anything.

And some of us, really dumb ones, even fly competitions with Astir CS
against Discuses and LS-7+ :/ And yes, occasionally cross-country with K-8b
as well, just because I can

Best regards, hannu

Robert Ehrlich wrote:

... The drawback is
in setting rigid rules, like the need for a silver badge or a 300 km distance.
....

Well, such is club life. There are times with no human problems, and
there are times with huge human problems. Such rules are needed for the
latter. Rigid rules help to avoid conflicts. (You know: Why is he
allowed and I'm not?)

Besides, our rules make some sense. There is no point in flying silver
distance in a 1:50 ship. But by doing it in a Junior you learn
something. As a side effect, if a youngster happens to break a Junior,
we can live with that. An LS 8 would be another story... not only for
the club, but also for the (unexperienced) pilot. Chances are this would
stop him from going further.

The consequence is that we see ships in the top of the hierarchy
remaining in the hangars, while pilots remain on the ground because
they don't already meet the creteria for the better ships while others

I don't remember a single day when this scenario occured. But then, this
is my club, yours may be different.

Stefan

Hei,

hannu wrote:

[...] The worst scenario is that the high-level gliders fly around the
airfield and the low-levels in the hangar and the cross-country pilots
have a hay-straw in the mouth as they wait for their 1:30 hour slot...

Now, real men fly cross-country with K-8b if nothing else is available,[...]

It usually helps to just "threaten" to fly the K-8 cross-country and
kindly request that the one(s) claiming the Discus for local flights
retreive you when you inevitably land out after just 200 of your
intended 300km. Then they'll quite happily let you have the Discus and
rather fly the K-8 locally themselves ;-)

Regards,

Christian 8-)

"Christian Husvik" wrote in message
...
Hei,

hannu wrote:

[...] The worst scenario is that the high-level gliders fly around the
airfield and the low-levels in the hangar and the cross-country pilots
have a hay-straw in the mouth as they wait for their 1:30 hour slot...

Now, real men fly cross-country with K-8b if nothing else is
available,[...]

It usually helps to just "threaten" to fly the K-8 cross-country and
kindly request that the one(s) claiming the Discus for local flights
retreive you when you inevitably land out after just 200 of your
intended 300km. Then they'll quite happily let you have the Discus and
rather fly the K-8 locally themselves ;-)

Only, ONE DAY I'll fly that 300k in K-8b. All the way...

hannu

Stefan wrote:
Mark James Boyd wrote:

The Bronze badge precision landings and written test and
two flights of over two hours are a better prep for X-C than
a sole 5 hour duration flight, in my opinion.

Nowhere I said we'd require *only* 5 hours duration!

If you're interested: We require the 5 hours before the first cross
country. A cross country with an istructor has already been a
requirement for the license. Then, the first cross country has to be
prepared, and the preparation presented to an instructor. Preparation
means preparing the map (drawing circles, indicating outlanding fields),
estimating a schedule, knowing about the actual weather etc. etc.
Organizing a retreive crew is also compulsory. During the flight, you
take a logger with you. After the flight, there will be a debriefing
with the instructor which includes an analysis of the logger track. This
first cross country often is 50km silver distance, but need not be. Of
course, it is flown with our primary solo trainer (happens to be a Junior).

I'm not personally a fan of requiring a 5 hour flight before the
first cross-country. I think this is excessive (in our area).
But of course our thermals are quite regularly spaced and there
are tons of landouts.

I think the Bronze Badge training is quite sufficient before a first X-C.
And two flights of two hours is enough, I'm not sure what more
is gained by a 5 hour flight before ones first 50km attempt.

I also think a first X-C which takes longer than 2 hours or is
further than a bit over 50km is an overtask. I really like a
straight out, downwind to a landing at a pre-scouted airport
as a first X-C task. KISS.

But I could see instances and locations where other tasks or
training might be a better preparation. So if your club's requirements
don't seem overly restrictive, there's probably some
other details you are leaving out (the 5 hours includes a mini-X-C,
and different types of lift, and some navigation, and hydration
and "pee" practice).

And the ladder goes on: For the better single seaters, a 300 km flight
is asked for. Double seaters have their own requirements.

LOL. One would think that youd need more skills and hence
better qualifications to take the WORSE single-seaters X-C.

It sounds like an incentive program rather than a safety issue ;P
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

And two flights of two hours is enough, I'm not sure what more
is gained by a 5 hour flight before ones first 50km attempt.

I also think a first X-C which takes longer than 2 hours or is
further than a bit over 50km is an overtask. I really like a
straight out, downwind to a landing at a pre-scouted airport
as a first X-C task. KISS.

I should also add that personally I flew maybe half-dozen X-Cs
and landed out three times (at planned and scouted airports)
before I flew 5 hours.

I think I even flew a 200km (4:19?) before my first 5 hour flight.

But I had a lot of power experience before that, and I
was really bored by the idea of flying near the
gliderport for more than about a half hour, so maybe
mine is not a typical case.

Hmmm...lemme see how next season goes...
--

------------+
Mark J. Boyd

Mark James Boyd wrote:

I think the Bronze Badge training is quite sufficient before a first X-C.
And two flights of two hours is enough, I'm not sure what more
is gained by a 5 hour flight before ones first 50km attempt.

What's gained by 5 hours compared by 2 times 2 hours? Two things: First,
during 5 hours, the weather conditions will change. Everybody can stay
up between 13:00 and 15:00. 5 hours is a little bit more difficult. And
more educating. Of course, this depends on where you fly. Second, it's
the proof that you can stand it for 5 hours. Thermals get weaker in the
evening. Incidentally, this is the time when you get tired. Both
increase the chance of an outlanding... for which you should be
concentrated.

I really like a
straight out, downwind to a landing at a pre-scouted airport
as a first X-C task. KISS.

KISS for you. Less KISS for the club who has to retrieve 10 members at
the evening. Cross country, as we understand it, is not just flying out
with the wind, but also returnig in the evening.

LOL. One would think that youd need more skills and hence
better qualifications to take the WORSE single-seaters X-C.

Of course. This skill is achieved by forcing the new pilots doing their
first cross countries in "worse" gliders.

It sounds like an incentive program rather than a safety issue ;P

To some extent, yes. We push the new pilots to go cross country. But
then, it's also a financial consideration. As I wrote in an earlier
post: A youngster breaking a Junior in an outlanding is annoying, but
not relally a big problem. The same youngster breaking an LS8 is
somewhat different.

Of course it depends on where you fly and how your club works.

Stefan