Why GA is Dying

On Sat, 22 Jul 2006 15:43:07 -0700, jfleisc wrote:

During the visit he gave me one of his old high powered deer rifles
as a present. When I went back to the plane I walked right through the
terminal with it and out to my plane. Started up and left. No one gave me
a second look. I laughed about it most of the way home.

But did you see a lot of deer around the FBO as you walked through? I
didn't think so. You'd obviously scared them all away.

Now, don't you feel guilty?

- Andrew

the ramp. During the visit he gave me one of his old high powered deer
rifles as a present. When I went back to the plane I walked right
through the terminal with it and out to my plane. Started up and left.
No one gave me a second look. I laughed about it most of the way home.

Jokes on you; there are no more high-powered deer anymore.

Jim Macklin wrote:

The next morning there were more than a dozen airplanes sitting on the ramp, firewall
forward missing and the avionics were all taken. Later the DC3 was caught and they
had rigged a canvas and chain hoist on a rail out the door. They'd taxi near a Bonanza or
C210 and if the couldn't steal the airplane, they'd use power saws or cutting torches to
remove the parts they wanted.

Drug smugglers, plain thieves, and terrorists all want your airplane.


If they were wealthy enough to have learnt flying and owning a plane,
why would they be stealing? Have I missed a tongue-in-cheek thing here,
Jim? )

Ramapriya

It's airports like this and people with free access that have no business or
experience on an airport that are always leaving my canopy unlatched for the
wind to fling open. I'm glad someone is looking out.

BT


"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
. ..

"Stubby" wrote in message
...
Nobody is forcing you to use that FBO. Frankly, I like the idea of them
keeping tabs on people hanging around planes they are responsible for.
If I owned a plane, I might seek out a place like that.


They are not keeping tabs on people hanging around the airport. There are
2 gates to the ramp and both are wide open all day. The gates are not
monitored. Automobiles are allowed on the ramp. Bikes are allowed on the
ramp. People are allowed on the ramp. No ID, no anything other than an
active GA community to keep an eye on things during the day. At night, one
gate is open and there is a security person around.

I'm fine with that. I don't need/want big brother at the airport. I
don't want to have to sign in or card in or have to meet guests at a
security gate. That kind of security just isn't necessary at a GA field.

The issue today was that the kid was taking pictures instead of just
pointing and talking. Why you'd need to have an ID to take pictures (as
opposed to walking the ramp or driving on the ramp) is unknowable. And,
why someone with the FBO would fabricate a rule about having a photo ID to
take pictures is bizzarre.

KB

Stubby wrote:

Nobody is forcing you to use that FBO. Frankly, I like the idea of
them keeping tabs on people hanging around planes they are responsible
for. If I owned a plane, I might seek out a place like that.

Well, some have more communist tendencies than others. I think Kyle is
right. This behavior was out of bounds and I'm glad he stepped in and
called them on it. If we let this crap continue, then the terrorists
really have won.


Matt

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

Well, some have more communist tendencies than others. I think Kyle is
right. This behavior was out of bounds and I'm glad he stepped in and
called them on it. If we let this crap continue, then the terrorists
really have won.

So this probably isn't the forum to mention that one sultry night when I was
in college, my girlfriend and I snuck out to the local podunk uncontrolled
airport and "borrowed" the cockpit of an old, mostly-dismantled Soviet
helicopter for about half an hour, is it?

Sometimes I wonder about myself in my younger years, but it usually ends up
being pointless and self-congratulatory.

If it's any consolation to the gods of aviation, there was no door, the
panel was mostly removed, we left no trace, and she was a stripper with a
mile-high fantasy and thing for aviation in general... After she graduated
from college she moved to Louisiana and went to work at an FBO to pay for
flying lessons, so, it all came around in its own time I suppose.

-c

This type of post is of course an opinion post and as such should be
respected in that context.
My personal opinion on this is that you are either going to have airport
security or you're not..period!
You can parse the "my rights are being violated" thing to death, and you can
complain about the inconvenience till you're blue in the face, but the
bottom line is simply that you can't have it both ways.
9-11 happened. It just "ain't" the same world any more. You can bash
politicians. You can bash political parties. You can holler about the way
its all being done. But the bottom line remains the same. You either have
security or you don't.
Again, personally, if its my airplane that's sitting out there on the line,
or inside that hangar, or even your airplane out there, I damn well want the
FBO involved to take some interest in who's out there taking pictures of
everything.
Just my read on it. Don't mean it to be argumentative :-))
Dudley Henriques

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
. ..
After I landed from this morning's flight, a young guy (maybe 18 or 20
years old) came over, complimented my airplane and asked if he could take
some pictures. Of course, I was flattered and told him to shoot away. He
hung around and we talked for 20 minutes or more as I wiped down the
airplane for bugs, cleaned the canopy, etc.. Turns out, he has his
"ultralight pilot's license? (???) and is about ready to start training
for his PPSEL. Nice guy.

Once I took care of a few things (and the airplane cooled), I taxied over
to the wash stand and gave the RV a nice bath. - Can't go to Oshkosh with
a dirty airplane. The young guy from before happed to be over by the wash
stand with his camera, so we had another conversation as I was washing the
airplane.

In the middle of this, one of the employees from the FBO came over and
asked the guy to go to the FBO and present his photo ID so the FBO would
know who is making pictures at the airport. I steped in and asked where
this requirement came from, and the FBO guy hemmed and hawed, saying that
he thought it came from the airport authority. I asked if he could show
me the requirement in writing. He hemmed and hawed some more, and never
could answer the question. The FBO guy said that people didn't like
having others make pictures of their airplanes. (Huh??) Like, who? I
asked. Again, no good response.

I'll verify this with the FBO owner and the airport authority on Monday,
but no way, no how, is there a "must present an ID before taking pictures"
policy at my home field. Someone at the FBO didn't have anything to do and
decided to play "big man on campus" for fun.

So, what does this have to do with the slow death of GA? It has to do
with the attitudes around some airports. Today's 20 year old picture taker
will be tomorrow's private pilot who'll be paying for flying lessons,
gasoline, etc. and will eventually rent aircraft or own his own airplane.
That is, if he wasn't put-off by the FBO. In which case, that's one more
person who had his dream squashed, and will never become a pilot. Given
the sharp decline in the number of pilots in the US, it amazes me how
unfriendly FBO's can be. You'd think they would be out begging for
business. Naah. It must be far more productive to run off prospective
customers. No wonder there are so few new pilots.

FYI, my home field is just outside of Atlanta. Go one airport farther
away from Atlanta in any direction and you'll get great service by very
friendly people. Go to any of the airports closer to the city and they
will practically beg you to leave unless your aircraft is turbine powered.
I'd bet those unfriendly airports turn a lot of people from potential
pilots to boat or Harley owners.

By the way, the 20 year old guy did go inside the FBO and present his ID.
His choice, and a nice gesture. I thought a different gesture might have
been appropriate.

KB

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
k.net...
This type of post is of course an opinion post and as such should be
respected in that context.
My personal opinion on this is that you are either going to have airport
security or you're not..period!

Bingo. Bothering somone taking pictures doesn't make sense when the field
has minimal, if any security. E.G. my home field. They don't ID pilots or
passengers - even transients. Presumably folks in an airplane are bigger
threats than people taking pictures, so why does the buck stop with a kid
taking pictures?

What I see with most not all of the "security" procedures we face today is
that they inconvenience the innocent folks, but would have no impact on an
actual threat. A great example is the TFR around a sporting event. Anything
with wings could penetrate the TFR. Unless it is the Superbowl or World
Series, there won't be anything in place to stop even a C-150 if somebody
wanted to use one to create mayhem. The TFR is eyewash.

Same thing with getting the ID of a kid taking pictures. It doesn't stop
someone from taking pictures. Nor would it stop him if he was up to no-good.

That said, the point I was trying to make is that the FBO employee (or his
boss) pulled this "rule" out of his you-know-what. An excellent example of
how to drive off a prospective client. The kind of client who is sorely
needed by GA if it is going to survive another 50 years.

KB

"Kyle Boatright" wrote in message
. ..

"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
k.net...
This type of post is of course an opinion post and as such should be
respected in that context.
My personal opinion on this is that you are either going to have airport
security or you're not..period!

Bingo. Bothering somone taking pictures doesn't make sense when the field
has minimal, if any security. E.G. my home field. They don't ID pilots
or passengers - even transients. Presumably folks in an airplane are
bigger threats than people taking pictures, so why does the buck stop with
a kid taking pictures?

What I see with most not all of the "security" procedures we face today
is that they inconvenience the innocent folks, but would have no impact on
an actual threat. A great example is the TFR around a sporting event.
Anything with wings could penetrate the TFR. Unless it is the Superbowl
or World Series, there won't be anything in place to stop even a C-150 if
somebody wanted to use one to create mayhem. The TFR is eyewash.

Same thing with getting the ID of a kid taking pictures. It doesn't stop
someone from taking pictures. Nor would it stop him if he was up to
no-good.

That said, the point I was trying to make is that the FBO employee (or his
boss) pulled this "rule" out of his you-know-what. An excellent example
of how to drive off a prospective client. The kind of client who is sorely
needed by GA if it is going to survive another 50 years.

KB

Actually, the real threat to general aviation in the United States has been,
is now, and always will be, the American lawyer :-)
I would agree wholeheartedly that the level of security stinks generally in
aviation, as is the way it's being implemented.
Perhaps this specific instance is a prime example of that, perhaps not.
The main point, and the point that you don't want to lose when you start
dealing in these specific cases, is that airport security is something you
need very much in the United States right now.
I couldn't agree with you more that the entire issue needs complete
overhaul.
Dudley Henriques

Dudley Henriques wrote:


Actually, the real threat to general aviation in the United States has been,
is now, and always will be, the American lawyer :-)
Dudley Henriques



I dont blame the lawyer.. I blame the folks who HIRE the lawyer.

Interesting take on this thread... How many would have thought a more
"friendly" approach would have been to simply go out to the ramp (FBO
employee, or whomever was tasked to be ramp nazi that day) and socialize
with the photographer?

Ask him nicely about what he's doing.. comment on the nice weather...
ask him where he's from.. shake his hand.. get his name.. Ask him if he
wants to get flying lessons, maybe point out a place down the road that
does discovery flights, and offer to forward his name and phone number
to them.. Invite him to come sign a visitor's log in the lobby, which
your FBO keeps there for that purpose.. look at this ID there..

If the "visitor" gets evasive or otherwise suspicious, then play "bad
cop" and switch gears.. until then, with the friendly approach, you have
made the visitor aware that he IS being watched, while at the same time
being accomodating and promoting GA. Remember.. just about all of us
started off by going to the local field and hanging around for a bit
(unless you were born into aviation, or a product of the military).

If we keep turning small airports in to private clubs with barbed wire
and keypad entries, they will soon become OLD FARTS private clubs with
rusting fences and declining membership.

Dave